Damage to Arion's sail

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  • 06 Dec 2015 09:50
    Reply # 3677142 on 3668589
    Kurt Jon Ulmer wrote:

    mehitabel's sails have just completed another 3500 mile or so voyage, and they're perfectly fine after three similar tropical trips and a lot of NZ coastal sailing. They've never been covered in over 10 years of NZ & tropical sun and weather.

    They're flat-cut, made of Top Gun, triple-stitched. The edges are lightly reinforced, corners of the top two panels more-so, with light webbing in the leech only at the top. A bolt-rope has never suggested itself. Eyelets have never pulled out, nor holes or weak fabric shown up. They do not flog. 

    They're just starting to weather to an 'old blue-jeans' appearance where lazy jacks and mast lift rub - I thought they'd look more like my Levis by now. They're pretty nearly perfect. I'd like to restitch the seams with black thread before their next offshore trip.


    10 years exposure to sunlight (no sailcovers) and still going strong!  It looks like Top Gun at least has no UV issues.  Being coated on both sides (unlike Odyssey) might be what makes the difference.  Possibly being flat helps cut down chafe too?  It is interesting that Tystie's Mustang sails, also coated both sides, showed serious chafe after 7000 miles of ocean sailing.  This is not an opinion, I might add, just a rumination!
  • 02 Dec 2015 20:48
    Reply # 3671513 on 3607013

    Hi Graham,

    I predict you'll be happy with your new sail! And like mehitabel, Arion will very occasionally plead for a little more wind or a little more curvaceousness for a little more authority in light breezes coming from where you want to go. Just tell her she's made for other pleasures.

    When you get the sail up, all taut and flat and beautiful, strike the bottom panel with your palm, and see what a unit of structure it makes, like a great drum, bottom to top. 

    I'll be interested in your impressions of her heeling, and her proper sailing (that is, sailing with sheets eased) behaviour, comparing your cambered vs. your flat sail. Only a few people have tried both on the same boat.

    Dacron sailcloth stretches less than Top Gun, so your top panels may end up flatter than ours. We have a bit of baggy camber, and a regrettable hook in the leech because of the webbing inside, (wide tabling, as has been mentioned, seems a good idea) so ours aren't perfectly flat, when full of wind.

    The top 2 or 3 panels of a junk sail are surprisingly capable, somehow in much lighter winds than they're built for. Fan camber at work, I reckon. Since we can reef down to 1 panel, or one bundle even, our stormy weather options are sorted. And already bent on, not getting mildewy in a bag.

    For offshore or strong-wind sailing, I take the otherwise dead end of the sheet up to a becket on the top batten, much as you describe, and get a 5:1 purchase in the bargain. I'm unsheeting our top battens now, since mehitabel's back in coastal mode. This reduces the purchase to 4:1, and the added twist is good up there.

    We all wish that poor health would leave you, free to get on with things.

    Kurt

    Last modified: 02 Dec 2015 21:04 | Anonymous member
  • 01 Dec 2015 21:06
    Reply # 3669752 on 3607013

    Hi Kurt,

    Thanks for your input.  I thought about using Top Gun for my new sail and perhaps should have contacted you to discuss it, because I like the idea of not using sailcovers, at least not unless the boat is laid up for a week or two in a sheltered spot, but I was leery after my recent experience with Odyssey, so instructed my sailmaker to use 7oz Dacron, which I will religiously keep covered when not in use.  My bermudian Dacron sails lasted 12 years before beginning to show signs of deterioration and I still got another three years out of them before patching.  The sailcovers were on about 50-60% of the time, I hazard a guess.  The new sail is traditionally built, with triple-stitched, vertical seams.

    I understand the need to have storm sails flat-cut, and my top three panels are a lot flatter than a bermudian-headed trysail and storm jib would be.  There is just 20mm of round in the seams of each panel, with 50mm in the head of the sail, to allow for possible bend in the yard, not that I've seen any so far.  The theory (we'll see how it works out), is that this will give the sail extra lift in light airs.  My observations, after sailing with many different rigs, is that the top panels of a junk sail do more than their share of the work to windward, rather like the topsail of a gaffer or the square-topped racing mainsails in use today.  I am adding to this effect (I hope) by having a shorter yard and leaving the top three, fan-shaped panels unsheeted.  The leach of the top panel is almost horizontal, allowing the top two battens to fall out and add significant camber when the sail is fully hoisted.  Once I am down to the last three panels, this effect will be reduced.  I also have a webbing loop on the lower of the unsheeted battens, so allow me to incorporate it into the sheeting system if required.

    I currently have my spare sail rigged, a small, flat-cut, Reddish-style sail, with a bonnet at the bottom to increase the sail area to about 80% of the optimum area.  In flat water, it allows Arion to ghost along adequately in very light airs, and even tack, albeit slowly.  Yesterday, in 10 knots of wind, I was sailing to windward with the windvane set at 45 degrees and tacking smartly. I emphasize this is in absolutely flat water.  Once I get into the ocean, especially if there is an inshore chop, the game changes.  But then Arion always struggled in those conditions, even with the bermudian rig.  There is only so much you can expect from a 24ft, 5 ton boat with 10ft beam!  Arion is a downwind warrior.  With the wind anywhere from just forward of the beam to a dead run, we often sit on theoretical maximum hull speed, even exceeding it briefly on the crests of waves.  If I really have to go to windward in coastal waters, I motorsail.

    I'm fighting another battle with my health at the moment, and am unsure if or when I'll get back to sea, but I wanted to build a sail that I would be confident in on the longest offshore passages in remote areas of the South Pacific.  My cambered sail performed magnificently and I liked it, but one has to weigh up the cost/benefit analysis.  For regular inshore sailing, I'd choose a cambered sail, but I share Kurt's opinion that a flat-cut sail spreads the loads better, and is more reliable for offshore sailing.  When you are a thousand miles from land, your hull, deck, rudder and rig need to be beyond doubt, barring misadventure.  It might take a bit longer to tack into port when you reach your destination (I remember watching Zebedee tacking into Trinity Inlet in Cairns with her flat-cut sails in 2009), but the majority of your sailing will be with the sheets eased.

    PS:  I do believe it is possible to build a cambered sail that is strong enough for offshore work.  After all, other types of offshore sails are cambered.  But it is arguably a less important criterion offshore, and I wanted to get back to the simplicity and minimal stress that a traditional, flat-cut junk sail offers.

    Last modified: 02 Dec 2015 01:40 | Anonymous member
  • 01 Dec 2015 07:14
    Reply # 3668589 on 3607013

    Hello Graham and all,

    I have a few thoughts to put into the mill, I hope to Graham's & Arion's benefit.

    mehitabel's sails have just completed another 3500 mile or so voyage, and they're perfectly fine after three similar tropical trips and a lot of NZ coastal sailing. They've never been covered in over 10 years of NZ & tropical sun and weather.

    They're flat-cut, made of Top Gun, triple-stitched. The edges are lightly reinforced, corners of the top two panels more-so, with light webbing in the leech only at the top. A bolt-rope has never suggested itself. Eyelets have never pulled out, nor holes or weak fabric shown up. They do not flog. 

    They're just starting to weather to an 'old blue-jeans' appearance where lazy jacks and mast lift rub - I thought they'd look more like my Levis by now. They're pretty nearly perfect. I'd like to restitch the seams with black thread before their next offshore trip.

    I designed the sails for ocean passages, but mehitabel's fun to sail anytime the wind is over about 12 knots. When I don't feel like raising full sail, I can make do with about half the panels, on and off anchor and so on, in normal light conditions or in a fresh wind. No diesel in mehitabel, and the electric motor is rarely needed. We get around just fine and we never race. Well, never formally.

    I won't repeat all my remarks made 'In Praise of Flat-Cut Junk Sails' - that article is in the Journal. But I feel sad and sorry when I read about people's fabric and sail problems that, if not predictable, are at least explainable by the effects of trying for better light-air-to-windward performance. Laudable efforts all, and valuable for light-air sailors, but in mehitabel's case, she thanks her old-school sails every single day at sea.

    One point, tightly related to this discussion: mehitabel's battens support all the fabric; the fabric in turn supports all the battens. There's no significant strain that doesn't get distributed all over the rig. That's one of the main reasons I committed to the junk rig.

    I wouldn't be tempted to put camber in the uppermost panels. Those are stormsails. Flat-cut as I can make them, they don't lack drive when the wind justifies their existence.

    Graham, you've enjoyed your cambered sail's advantages, and you can compare with your flat-cut sail's abilities. I wish the two behaviours were convertible, switchable at will. But if I have to choose, as I do, I'll stay with heavy, flat-cut and UV protected both sides. 

    So I advise the same, humbly enough I hope. I never mean to say mehitabel's perfect. Only to say what's genuinely possible with very little sacrifice - an 'Annie Hill' philosophy I'm grateful and glad to have picked up.

    Cheers, Kurt

    PS - I still have an interest in bend-and-stop cambered battens that can somehow be cleverly made straight-and-strong for open ocean... 


    Last modified: 01 Dec 2015 07:40 | Anonymous member
  • 30 Nov 2015 19:33
    Reply # 3667888 on 3607013
    Anonymous

    Excellent idea about the bungees!

  • 30 Nov 2015 19:31
    Reply # 3667885 on 3607013
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    As you know, Alan, the HK parrels goes slack when a panel collapses. I too have experienced problems with them as you describe (not on Frøken Sørensen, fore some reason). I had an idea of how to rectify it: Either lengthen the battens (not so good-looking) or add thin bungees to the HK-parrels. They should be too thin to do any harm with the sail hoisted, but as soon as the sail is lowered, the bungees shortens the now slack HKp.

    Simple.

    Arne 

    Last modified: 30 Nov 2015 22:20 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 30 Nov 2015 19:20
    Reply # 3667875 on 3607013
    Anonymous

    I Don't have Hong Kong parells any more, they tangled with the batten ends when hoisting the sail, and with the throat parell the creases disappeared. Interesting about what you say about the stresses. the original main that had the problems with the tears at the batten ends had 2 inches slack along the sail, so no tension. I  think the sail puckered in the gaps between the batten pockets. ,However, it is perfectly possible that the stress came from diagonal tension. I might retry the HK parells. Many thanks

  • 29 Nov 2015 22:26
    Reply # 3666313 on 3607013
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Alan, two question:

    • 1.      Does Zebedee’s mainsail have Hong Kong parrels?
    • 2.      Have you put any tension in your sail along the battens?

    My experience is that HK parrels will offload the panels from diagonal stress, in particular in panel 3 and 4 from top. (The may stress batten 3 and 4 a bit so these should be made a bit strong)

    As for stretching the sail along the battens; it is tempting to do so to remove wrinkles along the battens. However, from a stress point of view, I think it is better to keep the sail 1-2% slack, as I did on Johanna-s sail (see photo in an earlier posting). If you look at the photos of my present Frøken Sørensen’s sail (Boat of the month, right now) you will notice stress wrinkles in all the lower panel corners (not in Johanna’s sail).This is because I stretched that sail to remove the those wrinkles  along the  battens.  The extra stress in the batten corners will be no problem on such a light Sunday-sailer as Frøken Sørensen , but I think the Johanna-way of rigging the sail is kinder to those panel corners in the long run.

    Clear as mud, right?

    Cheers, Arne

     

  • 29 Nov 2015 21:08
    Reply # 3666232 on 3607013
    Anonymous

    Paul on La Chica gave me an aluminium yard which is working very well. I think the cambered sails do put more strain on the yard and the throat parel puts more stress still and on the top sheeted batten. With no Hong Kong parels these are the only places that have more stress. Zebedee's sails are now 3yrs old. No obvious UV damage...yet.

  • 29 Nov 2015 20:49
    Reply # 3666231 on 3607013
    Anonymous
     Zebedee's sails have had a few issues.  Recently the main got 3 holes in the transition panel at the throat. I think this is because of the shearing force of the throat parrel. There was also some small tears at the luff corners. The foresail, however, is absolutely fine. There are a some differences between the main and fore, although they are  virtually the same size; no  transition panel and,I think, most important, the batten pocket goes the full length without any gaps, where as the main has 5cm gaps. The sail puckers at these gaps and increases the load at the batten ends and causes the rips. I have now rebuilt the main, completely taking apart all the panels, much easier with a rope bolt-rope as opposed to webbing, The new batten pockets go the full length, the corners of each panel are reinforced with one extra layer of Odyssey, and I’ve added a short length of nylon webbing wherethe panels join at the luff and leach.I've reduced the luff length of the triangular panels to 5cm and reinforced the luff. 


    The main sets beautifully, and worked well with 1000 M more or less all against the wind up to 40 kts, but, of course, not much of the sail was up then!. The foresail is still fine with no reinforcement, although I will, at some point, reinforce the corners of all the panels.  I have been wondering about my rope bolt-rope. It takes a whole day to sew it on, and it is not easy to get the tension right,  I normally get it too tight, and it takes another whole day to change it. However, it is indestructible, and it means you can take out any or all the panels to reinforce/rebuild/exchange. For instance,if a panel has UV damage, you can replace just that 1 panel.

    I also broke the fore yard. That is a major pain when it's rough, howling and trying to bodge something on the foredeck is just about impossible. I discovered that there was rot where the bolts went through. I've now got rid of all metal fittings and use a lashing. It seems to work well.


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