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Reefing & Unreefing when sailing downwind

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  • 23 Oct 2014 07:47
    Quote
    Reply # 3131720 on 3103777
    Anonymous member

    Thanks for that explanation Gary.  Sounds like a sensible way to resolve matters all round.   To avoid getting off topic, I'll post my summer plans in the cruising and rally forum.  Cheers.
  • 23 Oct 2014 00:48
    Quote
    Reply # 3131550 on 3131488
    Deleted user
    Graham Cox wrote:..
    Hi Gary.  Most interesting.  Could you please explain this a little further for me?  If the wind is on the beam and the foresail is forward of the mast, I assume you have it out to windward.  You describe the foresail as being alee but if it was down on the leeward side of the boat with a beam wind then even if you feathered it completely it would not go forward of athwartships.  If you had the wind aft of the beam it would be a different scenario.

    You also mention doing this in light winds.  You can get away with anything in light winds -  flying gybes for instance, without even putting down your cup of tea!  It might be a different matter in half a gale, and the question I was responding to was whether you could let the sail go all the way forward when running downwind, for the purposes of reefing, so that the leech was out over the bow and the luff pointing astern.  Besides the likelihood of getting into a serious tangle, you'd also need to have a much longer sheet!


    I couldn't figure which word describes it, alee, the normally leeward side of the sail is to windward(?). It came about after running wing'n'wong, then turning towards the anchorage. Dousing the main left and the foresail on the "wrong" side of the mast with the boat approaching a beam reach. The wind was rising too, approaching 20 knots, speed hitting 5 knots and was getting worried how to retrieve this sail, which by now sheeted out towards the windward side and pulling like a freight train, without a big BANG. So I bore off, sailed 360˚ tacking it around, a pirouette in the middle of Roebuck Bay, ending up on the same bearing but with the foresail on the normal tack, but heeled over more and speed dropped to 3.5 knots. Since then we have beam reached a few times with the foresail on the wrong side and have eked out an extra knot because of it. Yes, you need enough sheeting to do it.

    P.S. Graham, we had a change of plans, no Indonesia this year, heading down the QLD coast instead, I saw in the mag you are coming up. Probably bang into you in December?
  • 22 Oct 2014 22:45
    Quote
    Reply # 3131488 on 3130779
    Anonymous member
    Gary King wrote:
    Graham Cox wrote: I think you'd get into serious trouble.  If the sail was feathering forwards, hauling on the sheet would put a pure compression load on the battens and it might tangle besides.  You'd also have to let the sail go forward on the same side it was rigged on the mast, as the halyards and running parrels come down on the other side.  Even then, the luff of the sail is likely to tangle with the halyard and running parrels.  You'd probably have bring the boat beam on to recover the sail anyway, which would defeat the purpose, unless the roll of the ship flung the sail out a bit on the appropriate side.  PJR strongly recommends that you do not let the sail get past the athwartships position at any time and cautions that you should particularly guard against this when reefing downwind.  Donald Ridler, on Erik The Red, used to ease his sails forward somewhat to assist self-steering but he had endless trouble as a result, including broken battens. I have never heard of anyone deliberately letting the sail stream forwards.  Any volunteers in the name of science?
    Waving hand..

    I've noticed beam reaching with the foresail alee is more powerful than the proper way of setting it, in a lighter breeze. Maybe because there's less heel, but it is certainly faster. The sail is not all the way forward, just a few feet forward. We have "dropped" the sail well forward of the mast once and were able to recover it by simply steering the boat to windward.

    On the topic, quite often the foresail is stuck up there, with the downhaul, attached to the yard, being of no help, but we've been able to shake it down eventually without heading up. The problem appears to be the halyard wrapped around the mast, maybe because we don't have tall enough masts, jams the yard against it.

    I recently read of a solution, in a book recommended in another thread, pork lard, rubbed on the mast will do the job. :)


    Hi Gary.  Most interesting.  Could you please explain this a little further for me?  If the wind is on the beam and the foresail is forward of the mast, I assume you have it out to windward.  You describe the foresail as being alee but if it was down on the leeward side of the boat with a beam wind then even if you feathered it completely it would not go forward of athwartships.  If you had the wind aft of the beam it would be a different scenario.

    You also mention doing this in light winds.  You can get away with anything in light winds -  flying gybes for instance, without even putting down your cup of tea!  It might be a different matter in half a gale, and the question I was responding to was whether you could let the sail go all the way forward when running downwind, for the purposes of reefing, so that the leech was out over the bow and the luff pointing astern.  Besides the likelihood of getting into a serious tangle, you'd also need to have a much longer sheet!
  • 22 Oct 2014 21:55
    Quote
    Reply # 3131456 on 3131374
    Anonymous member
    Robert Leask wrote:I would think that making your topping lifts as slippery as possible would make it easier? I would think that minimising all sources of friction would be helpful.
    Indeed, you are quite right there.  And at the same time, less friction means less chafe so fewer holes in your sails.
  • 22 Oct 2014 21:52
    Quote
    Reply # 3131455 on 3130779
    Anonymous member
    Gary King wrote:I recently read of a solution, in a book recommended in another thread, pork lard, rubbed on the mast will do the job. :)
    Don't even thing about it if you want to go up the mast!  Or like to handle clean lines.  The Vaseline and linseed oil that we had to rub into PassePatu's masts was just revolting.

    But of course, as a good vegetarian, I wouldn't dream of using lard, anyway :-)


    Last modified: 22 Oct 2014 21:53 | Anonymous member
  • 22 Oct 2014 19:50
    Quote
    Reply # 3131374 on 3103777
    Deleted user

    This topic is of great interest to me, I'll be back to the boat in a couple of weeks and will be straight into the rigging and sailmaking. I had not thought about the halyard twist problem, and I think I may increase the drift a little at the expense of some sail area.

    The way I used to sail my old gaff cutter was to rarely ever touch the sheet to tiller steering, I could put in the first two reefs without altering anything and reefing the main had little affect on the course, because the steering sail was still shadowed. However the reefing process involved a lot of deck work which I would like to eliminate, and I'm hoping to keep sailing the same way with the junk rig.

    Something I learned about gaffers was that the lee topping lift is your best friend when reefing off the wind. I would literally drop the throat halyard, the momentum of the gaff would carry it well down the mast, and the peak would swing well forward and down, slacking the leech. Most of the wind force would then be taken by the topping lift, and it was pretty easy to haul the leech down. After I put plenty of baggy wrinkle on the topping lifts it was even easier because almost all the resistance was due to friction.

    I'm guessing at this point, but I think something similar should happen to a junk sail when you slack the halyard and/or throat hauling parrel? I would think that minimizing all areas of friction, especially the topping lift, possibly sewing patches of something slippery on the sails where they will contact the mast or topping lifts, would help make it do-able. 

    What about grabbing the sheet and shaking it vigorously (from the cockpit, of course)?

    Last modified: 23 Oct 2014 00:01 | Deleted user
  • 21 Oct 2014 23:16
    Quote
    Reply # 3130779 on 3130771
    Deleted user
    Graham Cox wrote: I think you'd get into serious trouble.  If the sail was feathering forwards, hauling on the sheet would put a pure compression load on the battens and it might tangle besides.  You'd also have to let the sail go forward on the same side it was rigged on the mast, as the halyards and running parrels come down on the other side.  Even then, the luff of the sail is likely to tangle with the halyard and running parrels.  You'd probably have bring the boat beam on to recover the sail anyway, which would defeat the purpose, unless the roll of the ship flung the sail out a bit on the appropriate side.  PJR strongly recommends that you do not let the sail get past the athwartships position at any time and cautions that you should particularly guard against this when reefing downwind.  Donald Ridler, on Erik The Red, used to ease his sails forward somewhat to assist self-steering but he had endless trouble as a result, including broken battens. I have never heard of anyone deliberately letting the sail stream forwards.  Any volunteers in the name of science?
    Waving hand..

    I've noticed beam reaching with the foresail alee is more powerful than the proper way of setting it, in a lighter breeze. Maybe because there's less heel, but it is certainly faster. The sail is not all the way forward, just a few feet forward. We have "dropped" the sail well forward of the mast once and were able to recover it by simply steering the boat to windward.

    On the topic, quite often the foresail is stuck up there, with the downhaul, attached to the yard, being of no help, but we've been able to shake it down eventually without heading up. The problem appears to be the halyard wrapped around the mast, maybe because we don't have tall enough masts, jams the yard against it.

    I recently read of a solution, in a book recommended in another thread, pork lard, rubbed on the mast will do the job. :)

    Last modified: 21 Oct 2014 23:17 | Deleted user
  • 21 Oct 2014 23:00
    Quote
    Reply # 3130771 on 3127988
    Anonymous member
    Robert Leask wrote:
    Mark Thomasson wrote:

    Turning beam on to drop sail does not sound very appealing and in some instances dangerous.  I would like to be able to drop sail on a dead-run.

    I had always assumed that an advantage of an un-stayed mast was being able to let the sail swing forward of the mast to let it drop, or just to spill wind. 

    What are the risks in doing so with a junk rig?

    many thanks

    Not having sailed a junk yet (will soon) letting the sail spill by easing it forward seems to me the easiest idea, especially in very rough conditions. The problem would be batten compression, but I also read here that heavy battens are a good thing for reefing a sail full of wind. Am I wrong to assume that adequately heavy and strong battens would allow one to do it this way?

    I think you'd get into serious trouble.  If the sail was feathering forwards, hauling on the sheet would put a pure compression load on the battens and it might tangle besides.  You'd also have to let the sail go forward on the same side it was rigged on the mast, as the halyards and running parrels come down on the other side.  Even then, the luff of the sail is likely to tangle with the halyard and running parrels.  You'd probably have bring the boat beam on to recover the sail anyway, which would defeat the purpose, unless the roll of the ship flung the sail out a bit on the appropriate side.  PJR strongly recommends that you do not let the sail get past the athwartships position at any time and cautions that you should particularly guard against this when reefing downwind.  Donald Ridler, on Erik The Red, used to ease his sails forward somewhat to assist self-steering but he had endless trouble as a result, including broken battens. I have never heard of anyone deliberately letting the sail stream forwards.  Any volunteers in the name of science?
  • 20 Oct 2014 23:31
    Quote
    Reply # 3127988 on 3112182
    Deleted user
    Mark Thomasson wrote:

    Turning beam on to drop sail does not sound very appealing and in some instances dangerous.  I would like to be able to drop sail on a dead-run.

    I had always assumed that an advantage of an un-stayed mast was being able to let the sail swing forward of the mast to let it drop, or just to spill wind. 

    What are the risks in doing so with a junk rig?

    many thanks

    Not having sailed a junk yet (will soon) letting the sail spill by easing it forward seems to me the easiest idea, especially in very rough conditions. The problem would be batten compression, but I also read here that heavy battens are a good thing for reefing a sail full of wind. Am I wrong to assume that adequately heavy and strong battens would allow one to do it this way?
  • 20 Oct 2014 07:47
    Quote
    Reply # 3127414 on 3103777
    Anonymous member

    mehitabel and I will add our ditto to David Tyler's, Annie's and the Sommers's approach. Patience, sea motion and sheets tended, and all will rattle into place. Exception if a squall wind were suddenly turned on from astern - heading up and hanging out for a few minutes best then.

    I keep meaning to fit a downhaul that I can move to the most likely-to-be bottom batten for the conditions, but it's never seemed so very necessary.

    Related: I chicken gybe, that is put the head through the wind onto the other gybe, for any reason at all, even when people are watching. And it's a good time to reef. Fun, safe, good for settling the rig...

    Last note: I've come to favour full sail over early reefing even when running at sea, but I would never say that, now would I?

    Cheers, Kurt
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