Comparisons - Split Junk and Cambered Panel Sails

  • 22 Sep 2014 13:37
    Reply # 3105573 on 3103628

    ANENOMETER

    They start in price about £15.  I bought a Skywatch Explorer 1 - £35 a few years ago.  an excellent piece of kit, made in Switzerland. 

    (I always considered an anemometer only good for blagging in the Club bar - but in fact knowing the wind speed when you are at sea helps greatly when looking at forecasts)

    TESTING

    What you end up with is a comparison.  Perhaps the best way to do this is rig the flat sail on a pivot beam with the test sail.  Each adjusted to the best performance for  a set wind angle.  Move the test sail along the beam to get a balance.  (I think this has been proposed before).

    Good luck, hope the results are worthwhile.

    ps I am with Arne about holding the sail, much like windsurfing, you get an instant feel for what is happening with any small adjustments.

    Last modified: 22 Sep 2014 13:38 | Anonymous member
  • 22 Sep 2014 11:48
    Reply # 3105487 on 3103628
    Deleted user

    Hi Annie, 

    Model Boats - no idea but i know a man who has - Slieve builds and races them.  No doubt he will respond when he gets a moment. 

    To me it is about getting 'good enough'  results and KISS. I do not have to stand up an prove it beyond all reasonable doubt - balance of probability will do for me,

    Regarding Arnes points and drawing above;  a few week ago in "Technical Illustrations", i posted a few photos of just that and yet a few more in my Members Profile - though i haven't  added comments to them yet. I was just doing some very quick mucking around, and will give some thought to Arne's suggestions.

    I am playing with ideas in my head an hope to respond later this evening with a few workable ideas or at least partially addressing some of the points raised by David T and Arne K

    But excellent response so far thanks to all. By throwing ideas around i am sure good things will emerge.

    Last modified: 22 Sep 2014 11:51 | Deleted user
  • 22 Sep 2014 00:11
    Reply # 3104076 on 3103628
    All the technical stuff is beyond me, but I think it's great to see someone attempting these comparisons and being able to get sensible feed-back before he goes too far along what could be a dead end (although Ash seems to have a pretty good idea of what he's trying to achieve).

    Have you thought about making model boats, Ash?  I don't know enough about model boat racing to know how feasible this would be, but I'm sure that if you required any assistance to do this, you are at the right place.

  • 21 Sep 2014 22:07
    Reply # 3104043 on 3103628
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Ash

    Frankly, I think there will be too many error sources here to warrant such a complicated test set-up that you describe. I agree with the points that David mentions, and really miss any indication of lift/drag ratio, which is a key parameter when it comes to sailing up-wind.

    I suggest you rather try a simpler test, at least to begin with. All you then need is

    • the panels you already have made (battens held apart with thin sticks at both ends),
    • plus a video camera on a tripod.

    The (transparent or transluctant) test panels must be generously tufted on the low-pressure side – which here will be on the upper side.

    In a half-decent, but not too strong wind, you will be able to hand-fly the panels like here, one at the time. The camera, positioned at 10m distance, perfectly aligned with the horizon, and zoomed in a bit, will record what you do, just as on my sketch. All you have to do is to shout the comments to the camera about what you are doing or registering, for instance “separation starts!” , “full stall!” or “maximum lift!”. You will automatically move your hands towards the CP of the panel (batten) to reduce twist-forces needed to hold the angle of attack.

    You can then shift quickly between the three test panels, several times, and thus, hopefully find which is the most or least powerful.

    Back home again the video can be replayed and frozen as you hear your comments. Then the battens’ angle of incidence can be measured, in addition to the CP (position of your hands) on the battens.

    I believe this cruder setup will give just as useful and interesting data as the more elaborate setup would do.

    What have I missed?

    Cheers,
    Arne

     

    Last modified: 22 Sep 2014 07:38 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 21 Sep 2014 12:37
    Reply # 3103887 on 3103628
    Deleted user

    Thanks Johnathan,

    I suppose my initial reaction is that wind strengths are not a vital part of my trials as all panels will be flown in the same conditions, and having a rough and ready indication of wind strength is probably good enough in my mind.

    It could be that when I get to the actual field trials I may find that different panels do better /worse in different winds and then accurate and instant wind data will become more important and could justify an application to the Committee. 

    How about if i have a few rehearsals and then come back on that point if relevant?

    Thanks for a good thought.

    Ash 

    Last modified: 21 Sep 2014 13:23 | Deleted user
  • 21 Sep 2014 11:55
    Reply # 3103885 on 3103628

    Ash

    Wow!

    You mention hiring an anemometer.  I would guess that if you asked the Committee they might look kindly on buying an anemometer and taking it on as Association property.  Just a suggestion, but based on no knowledge about type, specification and cost. 

    Jonathan  

  • 20 Sep 2014 22:00
    Reply # 3103724 on 3103628
    Deleted user

    Reply to 4th.

    Ok got you. 

    I know this is never going to be scientific. Unless you can suggest a better answer i think i am going to have to build all camber well forward in the panels, play with them and see. If i could arrange a sudden partial release of sheets and 'batten parrels to see which way the suddenly released panel wanted to go - i could never measure that - but would that be an indication of the lift vs drag tug of war?

    Ash


  • 20 Sep 2014 21:50
    Reply # 3103716 on 3103628

    2nd - yes you have to go with "the art of the possible".

    4th - no, it's not the same as the third. Suppose you put on a cambered panel back to front. It would generate most of its force near the leech, giving an excellent pull on your bucket. But if that sail panel were on a boat, that pull would be mostly backwards (drag). What we are trying to achieve is maximising the lift (vertical, in these test panels, or perpendicular to the wind) and minimising the drag (horizontal, in the direction of the wind). If you don't measure both, you don't know how good the panel really is.

    5th - will do.

  • 20 Sep 2014 21:49
    Reply # 3103715 on 3103628
    Deleted user

    Reply to Roy.

    Again thanks for your comments.

    I hadn't thought of a white background, i can see the benefit but may be cumbersome to arrange in wind - i will  have a think - could maybe park a white lorry behind or a cricket screen - now there is an idea!

    Re being able to see or distinguish panels in photographs - if i elevate the camera angle, and the panels do each have their own pair of battens separated by a couple of feet - i hope it will be ok. I will use several sets of tell tales of different colours ie all red for the flat panel etc so hope to be able to make it clear.

    Thanks  Ash

    Last modified: 20 Sep 2014 21:50 | Deleted user
  • 20 Sep 2014 21:33
    Reply # 3103714 on 3103628
    Deleted user



    First thought: this is a very interesting and worthwhile thing to do.

    Second thought: when this kind of 2D test is done in a wind tunnel, the test piece spans from wall to wall. Might you consider separating the panels with 8 x 4 sheets of inexpensive material?

    Third thought: your measuring method does not measure the force that the panel exerts on the mast, just the sheet load. The CE of each panel may well be in a different place, and this will tend to influence your results. 

    Fourth thought: you will need to measure both the horizontal and vertical forces at both mast and sheet, to get a true picture of the lift and drag of your panels.

    Fifth thought: I wish I were in the UK and could make a panel with battens with a central hinge and camber only in the forward part of the panel. And I wish that I could make a wingsail test panel, too.

    Reply.

    Ist. 

    Thanks David

    2nd.

     As a result of what Arne and Slieve said i had considered fitting a clip on 3mm thick ply - 2 m long by 20 or 30 mm wide onto each batten  to limit leakage from high pressure to low, - i suppose by what you have suggested thats not enough, but i know as soon as i get set up with 8x4 sheets held head to wind it will veer!  - just thinking of the practical difficulties. Would narrower panels  limit leakage a bit? I need to think about this one. Is it crucial to my comparisons, as long as  both panels suffer to the same extent does it matter?

    3rd 

    yes the Centre of pressure will move about and confuse my results a bit. But i have 7" of batten ahead of the luffs and i may devise a way of weighing the pressure the battens are exerting on the mast - like fitting  scales between battens and mast.

    4th

    You are loosing me here a bit - is this the same as above?

    5th.

    I wish you were too, but if you can draw me a sketch of what you have in mind i will happily make it and include it.

    Thanks

    Ash


    Last modified: 20 Sep 2014 18:23 | David Tyler
    Last modified: 21 Sep 2014 11:09 | Deleted user
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