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Badger performance w/ outboard well & Belcher windvane steering

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  • 10 Dec 2013 05:25
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    Reply # 1455100 on 1455024
    Deleted user
    Gary King wrote: It has occurred to me we havent tried lashing the tiller on other points of sail, no idea if it would work, yet.
    I did also try the lashed tiller on a reach and a broad reach and although Footprints would hold a course for a while she eventually did wander off course as she surged down waves and was unable to self correct. This resulted in a gybe on a couple of occasions. A two masted sail plan might be more successful with this as there would not be the same loadings as with the large single sail as on Footprints.
  • 10 Dec 2013 01:39
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    Reply # 1455024 on 1431262
    Deleted user
    Yes she would hold course with the tiller free, but the tiller bashed about too much, hitting the boom crutch, and noticed her course was even straighter after lashing it. It has occurred to me we havent tried lashing the tiller on other points of sail, no idea if it would work, yet.
  • 10 Dec 2013 01:35
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    Reply # 1455022 on 1455016
    Deleted user
     
    Gary King wrote:Ashiki can sail herself to windward very nicely with the tiller lashed, very straight course too.
    I also found on our recent ocean crossings and when I was having self steering problems that Footprints was able to hold a steady course to windward with the tiller lashed. I had a line on the windward side of the tiller and a heavy shock cord spring on the leeward side. Once set up Footprints would hold a consistent compass course but each time sail was reduced or increased I needed to fiddle for a while to get the balance back. But we sailed for 4 days like this in consistently strong winds with Footprints holding the course for 8 hours at a time. Footprints has a very long shallow fin keel with a long skeg ahead of the rudder so maybe this hull configuration helped.
  • 10 Dec 2013 01:24
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    Reply # 1455016 on 1454988
    Anonymous member
    Gary King wrote:Ashiki can sail herself to windward very nicely with the tiller lashed, very straight course too.
    Badger would sail herself to windward for hours on end, following the wind shifts far more effectively than any helmsman.  And there was no need to lash the helm or even to make any effort with the sheets.  She did this with rudder-and-no-skeg, rudder-skeg-and-saildrive and with rudder-skeg-and slightly-offset-propeller.  With 2 sails the same size and with a mainsail slightly larger than the foresail; reefed or without reefs.  My conclusion was that it was the rig rather than the boat that was largely responsible for this.

    I suspect that most schooners are capable of this, but that it rarely occurs to their helmsmen to let go of the tiller to see.
    Last modified: 10 Dec 2013 01:25 | Anonymous member
  • 10 Dec 2013 00:42
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    Reply # 1454988 on 1431262
    Deleted user
    yeap we're still working on it. We're docked in Fremantle now, the marina office gave us a berth right infront of holiday apartments, so Asian tourists can record every modification we make...
    Found out why our first impression of the vane was so good, it wasnt the vane, it was because Ashiki can sail herself to windward very nicely with the tiller lashed, very straight course too.

    BTW, nice admiralty anchor you have there, we bit the bullet and bought one yesterday along with 40m of chain. This coast with 30 to 40kts winds and some anchorages you cant tell whether grass or sand taught us we need major ground tackle, having dragged several times. Have 3 anchors now; Super SARCA, Plough and Admiralty.
    Last modified: 10 Dec 2013 00:43 | Deleted user
  • 09 Dec 2013 22:49
    Quote
    Reply # 1454933 on 1431262
    Anonymous member
    Gary - don't give up on the trim tab.  We found it was the best of several systems that we had on Badger.  Ours had a vertically pivoting wind vane.  I know all the pundits say these don't work as well, but this one was just fine (and generally no problem in windy anchorages, although one did get its top blown off in S Georgia!)  When Pete built the gear he made the trim tab more vertical, rather than following the line of the rudder.  This sounds so meaningless as to be useless, so rather than blather on any more, I suggest you look at the photos of the trim tab and the wind vane. 

    And don't forget, that if you seem to have a lot of weather helm: reef!
  • 06 Dec 2013 12:44
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    Reply # 1452953 on 1431262
    Deleted user
    BTW, we had a genuine 42kts of wind in the anchorage the other night, no harm to the free flipping vane. The winds that wrecked the first one which was lashed, were only 32kts.

    We picked up a mooring cause it was little scary (on the 42kt night), then told by the ranger to get of it the next day..
  • 06 Dec 2013 12:35
    Quote
    Reply # 1452943 on 1431262
    Deleted user
    Maybe it is oversteer. What I saw was the boat's weatherhelm overpowering the vane, until Ashiki had rounded up enough for helm to weaken, then the vane took over and turned the boat too far the other way, to a broad reach, so the S shape course was turning through 90˚. Belcher's solution for increasing feedback is to add more weight. Which I did. 

    I think I will try making the trimtab more sensitive, and add more weight. I had it turning 45˚ against 90˚ flip of the vane which is 2:1 (but it rarely reaches 90˚ on some reaches). I adjusted it today to be 45˚ trimtab with only about 60 or 70˚ turn of the vane.
    Last modified: 06 Dec 2013 12:37 | Deleted user
  • 06 Dec 2013 03:04
    Quote
    Reply # 1452804 on 1431262
    Anonymous member
    That sounds like an oversteering problem. If the vane axis is horizontal, there is no negative feedback when running downwind, and the vane is constantly throwing across from one extreme of its travel to the other.  Then you get rhythmic oversteer, where the boat is steering an 'S' shaped course. All commercial gears have an inclined axis for the vane, which Bill Belcher didn't  think was necessary, but everyone else thinks is vital for good steering. The inclination reduces the force applied to the servo as the vane goes to a greater angle, which makes for a proportional response and stable steering.
  • 06 Dec 2013 00:50
    Quote
    Reply # 1452713 on 1431262
    Deleted user
    Yeah, have been thinking of building a servo pendulum, but the rudder does respond to the trim tab, if only the trim tab can be moved far enough.

    I did move a pin on one of the linkages, changing the ratio from 2:1 to 1.7:1, which wasn't enough. But will try using a 2nd hole I have in the trim tabs arm, making it shorter.

    The problem I noticed is not..  "not enough" force, but the vane doesn't lie right angles to the base when the boat is heeled 20˚. It is close to horizontal, which means about 120˚ to the base rather than 90˚, thus the trim tab doesn't get the full signal.

    The first day sailing  (with repaired vane) there were large waves ~2m buffeting the rudder and the vane couldn't handle that. Maybe the rudder not being very balanced is the problem (has about 5-8% balance). Belcher suggests more counter weight, which improved matters slightly. But eventually the meanderings were so wild we gave up.

    The sizes of the vane and trim tab are according to Belcher. Trimtab about 25% size of rudder area (I think) and vane 1200x305mm. 
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