Time to get junk rigged!

  • 19 Dec 2013 11:03
    Reply # 1460875 on 1414460
    Lovely, thanks!
  • 19 Dec 2013 00:21
    Reply # 1460688 on 1414460
    Hi Oscar,
    As it happens, I've made a drawing of the panels of my sail, with the rounding on the panels as I would like it to be, with the experience of sailing up the Pacific to draw on. That is, with less camber in the after part, but maintaining the depth of camber in the forward part. The projected area, or area of all the quadrilaterals, is 57.7 sq m, and the actual area of the cloth (flat, with no broad-seaming applied) is 70.8 sq m, so you can see that it is very much a question of defining what you mean by a sail's area. 

    Anyway, if your sail is to have a projected area of 37 sq m, you would only have to apply a factor of:
    square root of 37/square root of 57.7
     to the dimensions of my sail to get the dimensions of the panels for your sail. So what I'll do is to email you the panel drawings for my sail in pdf format, and then you can eat your Christmas feast with one hand, while you calculate the dimensions for your sail with the other :-)
  • 18 Dec 2013 22:01
    Reply # 1460639 on 1414460
    Hi guys and gals!

    Christmas holidays approaching, which for me means sail sewing! I have solved some issues I've been pondering about while I've also stumbled upon some new ones.

    For those uncaring about babbling please scroll down to the bottom of the post.

    According to various data found on the internet my boat has a displacement of 3000 kg. However, after making a 3D model of it in Delftship it seems to be close to 3200 kg. This might or might not be an error. But when considering loading the boat for long distance cruising I should easily hit 3500 kg which means the initially planned 34 m2 will probably be too small. With 3 tons displacement it clocks at 16.3 while with 3.5 tons is only at 14.75. And if it is around 3.2 tons to start with, it might even go up to 4 tons fully loaded which - considering I might go engineless altogether (which I've mostly have up until now, the outboard has only been used on rare occasions) - would give a SA/disp of 13.5 which is way too low for a small-ish engineless sailboat.

    Last winter I considered 41 m2 which translates to:

    3 tons: 19.7 SA/disp
    3.5 tons: 17.8
    4 tons: 16.3

    It's on the large side and the previously concieved 188x3mm steel mast might be in for a rough ride, not mentioning the battens which would have to be notably stronger than the ones for a 34 m2 sail. Maybe 37 m2 could be middle ground?

    3 t: 17.8
    3.5 t: 16
    4 t: 14.7

    Just for easier reading, here are the numbers (again) for the 34 m2 sail:

    3 t: 16.3
    3.5 t: 14.75
    4 t: 13.5

    Then, onto another issue. I've realized that realistically making longer trips (out of the Baltic) will probably require a few years, so I've decided to use polytarp for my sails, which my dad has succesfully used on his boat now for two summers without problems. I have also found a company that would sponsor the materials. This means that when I finally decide to leave this horrible cold existence of the Nordic countries, I will have to sew a new sail. So this one will be a prototype. From which point of view it seems wise to make a slightly larger sail (rather than a smaller one) now so I don't need to extend the battens for the next "final" sail.

    From the very start I've been having an inner argument with myself between flat and cambered sails. Arne and Slieve have made clear cases in favor of camber while Kurt has been equally convincing about the merits of flat sails. Camber definitely makes a lot of sense when a) sailing engineless and b) within confined coastal waters. But flat sails also have their advantages, mainly in the ease of construction, design, rig stress and thus longevity. However, you need a slightly larger penis to be able to cope with the handful of boats that will sail by you, when you could've had the chance to beat them by sewing in some camber.

    So I've settled for camber and will probably use it unless someone provides me with a compelling argument for sewing a slightly larger flat sail. It would work well as a prototype and a JR introduction for me, and when I build the final offshore sail I would make it a little smaller with proper camber sewed into the lower panels.

    Now onto more serious matters. For scientifically unexplained reasons, I've had a thing for David's fanned sail since I first saw the designs and theory behind it and later in practice on Annie's Fantail. Browsing around JRA:s resources I found some drawings of the sail in Box, under Drawings / AnniesConversion, and I was wondering whether the person responsible for making the PDF containing individual panel measurements (FantailSail.pdf) would be willing to do the same for me and my 37 m2(?) sail?

    Cliff notes:

    34, 37 or 41 m2?
    Could someone provide me with detailed panel drawings of the Fantail sail of chosen area?
  • 20 Oct 2013 23:36
    Reply # 1417458 on 1417451
    David Tyler wrote:Paul, good arguments, but you've neglected one of the more important points: the sheer weight of the mast up near the bow, which increases the boat's pitching moment of inertia and tendency to hobby-horse, a major soaker-up of energy and speed-sapper. And 90/64 = 1.41; an increase in mast weight of 41% is not negligible!

    Yes, however the true weight difference is somewhat less than 41% when you take into account the weight of the sail etc... Further more, if Oscar goes for a "Fantail" type sail and a healthy forward rake (which as you pointed out, the Fantail sail does like) the situation is somewhat eased as the mast can be stepped further inboard. Coupled with Oscar having an issue with work space... the steel option still makes sense to me.

    Also, the CG being lower in the fully tapered mast is still an asset. Even with regard to pitching moments.

    I'm not saying that a hybrid does not always make sense, many times it does but I think that in this case, the tapered steel mast is not a bad alternative.

    BTW I have not (yet) noticed any particular pitching problems with LC and she's not what I'd call full bowed. Her rig is about 3% of displacement

    Last modified: 21 Oct 2013 00:19 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Oct 2013 23:35
    Reply # 1417457 on 1414460
    Paul, lots of sense in that post.

    David, as I mentioned earlier you should also take the rest of the weight into account. If a 9 meter mast is 64 kg, a 10 meter mast might be 70 kg. So with the addition of sail, battens and other hardware which amount to maybe 30-40 kg... Let's say 30 kg. The total weight is then 100 kg with the hybrid vs 120 with the steel mast. That's a 20% difference, not 41%. But yeah, you still have a valid point on all of that weight being near the bow.
  • 20 Oct 2013 23:21
    Reply # 1417451 on 1414460
    Paul, good arguments, but you've neglected one of the more important points: the sheer weight of the mast up near the bow, which increases the boat's pitching moment of inertia and tendency to hobby-horse, a major soaker-up of energy and speed-sapper. And 90/64 = 1.41; an increase in mast weight of 41% is not negligible!
  • 20 Oct 2013 22:11
    Reply # 1417414 on 1414460
    The difference between a fully tapered steel pole mast and a hybrid mast is not as great as would appear at first glance. If we accept Davids figure of 64kg for a hybrid mast and Oscar's figure for the tapered steel pole at 90kg, the difference is only 26kg.

    Then consider that a hybrid mast of the type under discussion has the weight distribution upside down. The heavier part of the mast is at the top not at the bottom where is should really be. Also consider that the aluminum pipe section is parallel sided and only the wooden section has some taper.

    Now consider where the center of gravity is for each mast. In the tapered steel mast, the center of gravity will be at a point approximately about a third of it's length up from it's base. In the hybrid mast it will be roughly the other way around with the center of gravity at around 60% of it's length from the base. The exact position being dependent on the weight of the wooden section but whatever it is, it cannot be better than 50% that being the center of gravity for a straight aluminum section.

    The lower the center of gravity, the less heeling moment that the mast can exert so I suspect that in terms of actual heeling moment there would be little or no difference between the two masts. Indeed, it could possibly be that the steel mast comes out better but that of cause would depend on exactly how the hybrid mast was built. All in all, I suspect that in this case, there is no compelling reason to go for a hybrid mast. It also likely will cost more and you will spend more time building it.
  • 20 Oct 2013 19:01
    Reply # 1417317 on 1417206
    David Tyler wrote:

    It's worth repeating that this design of sail seems to need a forward-raked mast - Tystie's at 2 degrees is not so good as Fantail's at 6 degrees, for ease of furling and best positioning of the mast lift. Footprints was improved by raking her mast at 3 degrees. 



    4% seems like the middle way then.

    I'm currently researching methods of constructing the sail, batten pockets, reinforcements etc. and will bombard you guys with more questions soon.
  • 20 Oct 2013 17:39
    Reply # 1417253 on 1414460
    Deleted user
    Traditionally this was done purely for aesthetic reasons.

    If you look at a straight tapered cylinder from below, perspective makes the taper appear concave. If you get the barrelling right, or close,  the convex taper appears straight from below.
  • 20 Oct 2013 16:14
    Reply # 1417206 on 1417154
    Oscar Fröberg wrote:
    By the way, I'm curious as to why you think a half-barrel shape would be better than a straight taper?

    I've decided on a 34 m2 Fantail-type sail
    I can't offer a technical reason for that, it's more a gut feel and the better appearance, to my eye.

    It's worth repeating that this design of sail seems to need a forward-raked mast - Tystie's at 2 degrees is not so good as Fantail's at 6 degrees, for ease of furling and best positioning of the mast lift. Footprints was improved by raking her mast at 3 degrees. 


       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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