Windward Ability in Very Strong Winds

  • 13 Nov 2013 00:02
    Reply # 1433891 on 1400344
    Deleted user
    SLACKTIDE was able to beat in 45kt with unlimited fetch, making about 1/2 knot good, deep reefed over neutral current.

    As you can see from the icon, she's a box barge with leeboardlike off-centerboards (work on both lee and windward sides). Our JR is dumbed down to match (only running sheets and haulyards). The only concession to efficiency is that we remove purchase from the reefed bundle in heavy winds, reducing twist.

    If JR can drive us into the wind, it can drive anyone!  8)

    Dave Z

    Note: It must be said that the upper panel accentuates the CrabClaw shape, and we deep-cut the leech to help bring the CE inboard. I believe both these features help.
  • 30 Sep 2013 01:57
    Reply # 1401210 on 1400344
    Many great comments. All in line with what mehitabel teaches. 

    I can't imagine a better solution than a junk rig for becoming so deeply reefed.

  • 29 Sep 2013 10:38
    Reply # 1400809 on 1400344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Sunday

    I have found that the 3-panel top section  of my sails are quite good for upwind work.  In my 3 ton Johanna (1.4-ton keel), it takes a F7 before I need to drop this much sail ( 3 panels= 21sqm). Tacking angle is wider than when sailing 7-up in a breeze, but we definitely go to windward. With my new lazyjacks setup the yard and upper battens are well supported by the lee topping lift so the twist is moderate. The biggest brake when sailing to windward in Johanna is the 25cm thick mast. Its “sail area” of 1.6sqm can be felt when going to windward in strong winds. I have never gybed in these winds, but tacked around instead.

    My 740kg Frøken Sørensen is much more tippy so when we, on her third trip, went out in F5-F6, with strong gusts on top of it, we also ended up on only 3 panels (about 9sqm) . This worked well, and we made a reasonable progress to windward. However, when we dropped to just two panels, just to see, we felt underpowered. Here you can see how the top section rigs.  The use of a little camber in the top panels helps in keeping the leech taut and avoid fluttering.

    Mind you, the strong-wind sails I refer to were in sheltered waters. Close-hauled sailing offshore is a very different game. There I have found that the seastate rather than the wind is the limiting factor. This is why I like the full-keel boats (Contessa 26, Vertue) better for this work: They let one sail slowly to windward without losing too much ground in making leeway. A fin keel is more likely to stall each time the boat is being stopped.

    Conclusion: The JR is definitely a good upwind rig in strong winds. In these conditions I really congratulate myself for having installed it. 

    Cheers, Arne

    Last modified: 30 Sep 2013 07:41 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 29 Sep 2013 06:11
    Reply # 1400743 on 1400344
    When we took Badger to the Falkland Islands, it wasn't long before we came to the conclusion that if we weren't prepared to go out in F7 winds, we weren't going to go anywhere.  We spent 13 months there and sailed up and down from one end of the archipelago to the other, several times.  Believe me, this meant that we had to go to windward, and we had to go in plenty of wind (after all, we were in the Furious Fifties).  The only auxiliary engine we had was a Seagull, so we relied on our sails.

    And like the other posters, my advice would be to jump in with both feet, accept the challenge and enjoy the outcome!
  • 28 Sep 2013 21:59
    Reply # 1400502 on 1400344
    Mark, I don't know if you have followed my posts about converting Arion to junk sloop from bermudian cutter.  I was a bit intimidated by how different it all was at first but reminded myself that a legion of veteran sailors had successfully voyaged with the rig before me.  My experience with the rig has been that my cambered sail works just as well to windward as the bermudian rig did, more so in fact because the boat stands up to its canvas so much better than before, allowing me to drive the boat a lot harder.  I always put a tie around the bundle when deep reefed.  As David says, it helps with sail shape but it also guards against fan ups when gybing.  With my sail deeply reefed, the rig feels rock solid and inspires tremendous confidence.  Knowing how easy it is to raise or lower a panel as needed only adds to my sense of snug security.   Having experienced cruising under junk rig, I would never go back to a bermudian rig.
  • 28 Sep 2013 21:52
    Reply # 1400494 on 1400344
    I would support what Paul and David have written above.  Both their comments chime true with my experience.  The HM shape sails on Lexia fully reefed make two lobster claws.  And interestingly, I have just learnt something - tie the sheetlets together so they pull together.  OOda thowt it! 
  • 28 Sep 2013 21:18
    Reply # 1400477 on 1400344
    A HM sail reefed down to the top two triangles is actually quite an efficient shape, and is very manageable when going to windward in half a gale. It's better if a sail tie is put around the whole bundle of sheetlets, so that they all pull together, and don't let the sail sag off, but that's easy to do. 

    It sure as heck beats a deeply reefed roller headsail, which is terrible for going to windward.

    I echo what Paul said, Mark. In the words of the Nike slogan "Just do it!".
  • 28 Sep 2013 20:52
    Reply # 1400466 on 1400344
    Mark Thomasson wrote:The standard junk sail plan gives a very low aspect sail when reefed down to its smallest size.  In theory this should not perform as well as a higher aspect sail up wind. 
    What is the experience of any members who have had to work to windward in very strong winds.

    It works just fine. So far I've sailed LC to the windward in up to 30 kts without issues and she undoubtedly sails better than she did under her gaff rig.

    Mark, you need to stop worrying about theory and start doing :-) Then you'll know the answers for real.
    You can agonise over theoretical issues forever but only doing it provides proof of the pudding.

    Virtually no one that has actually bitten the bullet and done a conversion has said they want to go back to what they had. Certainly, I'll never go back to a gaff or bermuda rig,

    Now days when I get invitations to sail on non junk rig boats, I normally decline them, Other rigs are just to much work to sail!

    Last modified: 29 Sep 2013 03:36 | Anonymous member
  • 28 Sep 2013 15:48
    Message # 1400344
    The standard junk sail plan gives a very low aspect sail when reefed down to its smallest size.  In theory this should not perform as well as a higher aspect sail up wind. 
    What is the experience of any members who have had to work to windward in very strong winds.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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