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Converting a 40ft Offshore

  • 24 Oct 2025 06:04
    Reply # 13555587 on 13545697
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

     

    Here's how my trial drawing turned out, just for comparison.

    Pretty close. Your CE is an inch or so further forward than you have drawn it, I suspect.

    My rough drawings were only for the purpose of showing you what to do.

    I have used a scale copy of the Amiina ll rig for the foresail. You might want to discuss with Slieve the pssibility of increasing its aspect ratio.

    You have to make sure now that you have correctly calculated the sail areas (both the original bermudan and the recent junk sails), and that you have correctly calculated the CE of both the bermudan and junk sail plans, and that the two CEs coincide on the same vertical line.

    Unless you are confident of your drafting and your calculations, it might be an idea to do a more accurate drawing now, using CAD software, from the first step of finding the original bermudan CE.  The CAD software will do the sail area calculations for you.



    I am inclined to agree with David, a ketch rig might suit the vessel better. With a ketch you could have had a bigger mainsail, possibly commensurate with the 550/300 split you had originally envisaged. However that depends on internal arrangements, and your own taste, I guess. Good luck.



    Last modified: 27 Oct 2025 10:28 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 24 Oct 2025 02:35
    Reply # 13555555 on 13545697

    Eventually managed to finish the drawing, and the 

    CE of the original sails and the new setup, using your 

    suggestions on sail sizes, seems very close. 

    Thank you 

    1 file
  • 21 Oct 2025 02:27
    Reply # 13554330 on 13545697

    Thank you Graeme and David. 

    I will redo the drawing and  try be more accurate. 

    I will ask Slieve about increasing the size of the foresail 

    And also find a smaller Anre main sail. 

    Thanks again. 

  • 20 Oct 2025 23:51
    Reply # 13554277 on 13545697
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thanks David.

    OK Mark, looking at your drawing (your first iteration) the geometric centre of your proposed rig seems to be about 1/4 m aft of the green line.

    (I have done a rough calculation of where your proposed centre lies, using red. Assuming that the sail areas you have given are correct (330 and 520 sq ft) then your proposed mainsail area is about .61 of the total sail area and the proposed fore sail area is about .39 of the total sail area. This puts the resultant centre roughly as shown – looks like about ¼ m too far aft).

    I believe that with these mast placements, In order to match the desired vertical green line, the areas of the two sails need to be roughly in the ratio 50:67  (fore sail: main sail). That is to say, if your total sail area is to be (let us say) 850 sq ft - then the fore sail should be about 850x50/117 =  363 sq ft and the main sail should be about 850x67/117 = 487  sq ft. 

    Try making another drawing, (your second iteration) on these mast positions, but with mainsail scaled down to 487 sq ft and fore sail scaled up to 363 sq ft, and see if this gets you closer to centering on that green line.

    (By the way Mark, your method for finding the geometric centre of a junk sail is incorrect. I think I can see how you have done it. When the masts are vertical (as they are supposed to be here) just strike a vertical line which goes through the midpoint of the boom. That is close enough. You lucked out on the mainsail but got it wrong on the fore sail you can see I have corrected it. Take care also, and note your drawing is not oriented exactly vertical, though close enough.  I would feel more confident doing this on a big screen and with CAD software).

    Last modified: 21 Oct 2025 00:12 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Oct 2025 22:34
    Reply # 13554260 on 13545697

    Graeme, yes, if a rig can be designed with its CE on your green line, then all should be well.

    Mark, all I'm in a fit state to do is to indicate general directions that the design might take. Sorry, but I can't help more than that. You will need to shoulder the responsibility for the detailed design, using PJR and Arne's writings and drawings as your guide. If you feel unable to do that, you could consider engaging professional help from eg Alan Boswell. As Graeme said, this is a big boat, and the number of people with relevant first hand experience must necessarily be limited. 

  • 20 Oct 2025 21:55
    Reply # 13554242 on 13545697
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    It's a big boat and I am not qualified to advise. However, I can help you with some of the maths.

    OK, let's take one step at a time. Here is an attempt (without accurate software) to determine the CoE of the original sail plan.

    I am ignoring the inner staysail and just looking at the main and genoa. Calculating the geometric centre of each.  Calculating that their areas are in the ratio 47:73   (main:genoa) and therefore the CoE is placed at a position of 47/120   or   73/120  on the line marked in green.

    I don't have any scale at this stage, but I can see that a vertical line through the centre I have calculated, runs through the clew of the inner staysail on this drawing, or just a little aft of the number 2 port light.

    If the drawing is correct (and if my methodology is correct) the CoE of the original sail plan is on a vertical line through the clew of the inner staysail.

    Can we agree with that, as a first step?

    The next step will be to design a junk sail plan whose geometric centre lies on this vertical green line.

    The driving power of this masthead rig (above) seems very much to be in the fore-triangle. David has suggested that a ketch rig would suit this hull better than a schooner. I must say, I can't think of a single advantage of the schooner rig, unless mast placement dictates it, but keeping an open mind, the next step is to look at the accommodation plan, placement of bulkheads, hatches and other structure, and decide what constraints there are on where the masts should be placed.

    We could begin by considering the mast placements you have chosen already, and see what sort of two-masted sail plan arises from that.

    The chosen rig should be centred around that vertical green line. 

    Are we in agreement with the first step (above)?

    Are we on the right track David? Arne?

    (Further investigation of your proposed schooner rig (very, very roughly) I think your geometric centre is about 1/2 m aft of the green line. Try reducing the main and increasing the fore sail just a little).

    Last modified: 20 Oct 2025 22:42 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Oct 2025 19:08
    Reply # 13554176 on 13545697
    Good morning.

    I do sincerely hope you're all well. 

    I'm baffled by the lack of response im receiving from the JRA, considering the volume of interest and participation in all the other threads on the forum. 

    I have asked for help with a project that would be happening right now, if i could get any information from the Junk rig community. 

    I have the boat ,masts and sail material, but lack the confidence to continue with the project without the imput of more knowledgeable and experienced  people.

    I'm in America on a visa and am running out of time, so if someone could please advise me or give me contact details of anyone that can help me move this project forward. 

    Kind regards Mark 

  • 10 Oct 2025 23:55
    Reply # 13551321 on 13545697
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    She's a cutter rig and I don't know if I should include the stay sail in the CE, but the genoa is 495 sq ft.

    I am not competent to answer that question, and I don't have any software other than a simple graphics app so I can't check your latest result. I think with a two masted rig, you always have a little wriggle room when it comes to helm balance, but having said that, I am hoping that someone with CAD software and more confidence than me, will vet what you have done and make sure you have the numbers right before becoming fully comitted.

  • 10 Oct 2025 14:01
    Reply # 13551042 on 13545697


    The original bermuda sail plan the main is 260 sq ft                                          She's a cutter rig and I don't know if I should include the stay sail in the CE, but the genoa is 495 sq ft.

    Together i get 755 sq ft. 

    The drawn junk foresail is 330sq ft

    And the main 520sq ft.

    Together 85sq ft

    If I use Graemes formular ,I the CE almost on the same line. 

  • 10 Oct 2025 11:34
    Reply # 13551008 on 13545697

    Thank you Graham. 

    You're right, I didn't know this .I will do it again and I should have included the sail areas. 


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