Junk rig vs. Chinese lug rig (text fixed)

  • 17 Dec 2024 00:46
    Reply # 13441565 on 13441055
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    John, to create a link, highlight and copy the URL you are wanting to link to.

    Then highlight the word or phrase in your text which you propose to use as the link.

    Look at the control panel at the top of your page, and select the "chain link" icon.

    You will be invited to "insert link" and if you click on that command, you will see a text field under the heading "Insert Link Details".

    You copy or type your URL into this field and then click the command "Enter link" at the bottom. The text word you originally chose will appear blue, and it will have become a "link" to your URL.

    By the way, the "primary interest of the JRA to date" is much wider than ocean cruising, comprising at least as much interest these days in coastal cruising, including both long distance and weekending, day sailing etc, living on board, building masts and sails, JR conversions, traditional junks, junk rig history, new developments in junk rig, and many other junk-related things - and in recent times an increasing interest in small trailerable junk rigged boats. Your contribution regarding canoe sailing will be, I would expect, a new and welcome field.

    Last modified: 17 Dec 2024 06:16 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 17 Dec 2024 00:24
    Reply # 13441552 on 13441055

    Just to reiterate, the designers and builders of boats that meet the definition of junk rig as having a sheetlet for each batten or boomlet described their canoes with a single sheet as junk rigged too. They built many such canoes over three or more decades and they were described as junk rigged in the primary literature. The difference between then and now is that they used their boats for only for coastal sailing. The primary interest of the JRA to date has been rigs for boats that could cross oceans whether they do so or not. It is understandable that rigs with such different purposes would have structural differences.

     If you look at the images from Worcester that I've attached you will see that multiple sheetlets were used on sails without boomlets, sails with some boomlets, and differently on the same boat. They also clearly were not related to reefing on some boats that had more air than sail.

    Defining things precisely is impossible when the uses are so fluid and the same technology varies across the uses. You will end up with hundreds of definitions just like the Chinese. The lug rig itself is new to Europe and is a sail with a yard that may or may not have a boom. The unique characteristic of a Chinese lug sail was how the stresses on the sails and masts were diffused vertically across the sail. The weak mat sails, and later 11 inch wide sail cloth, was literally hung within a framework comprised of bolt ropes and boomlets. That is what makes a Chinese lug rig unique and distinguishable from a European lug rig. All of the other rig details appear to have been variable and optional. Hasler used what he needed for his purpose. The British junk rig sailors, yacht and canoe, of the 1870s did so too. The defining characteristic of a sail suspended within a framework is shared between them.

    Please tell me how to provide the links so folks can access them. Thanks 

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  • 16 Dec 2024 21:59
    Reply # 13441490 on 13441055
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    The problem is, Annie, most sailers these days are familiar with full length battens which are bendy and serve the purpose of smoothing out camber as well as supporting a generous roach, so it is common for people to shift this paradigm to the junk rig when they see images of full length battens, and mistakenly assume they ought to be bendy. It's intuitive in relation to sails, but a misconception which needs repeatedly to be corrected.

    (The fact that the word "batten" has other meanings outside of sail terminology is, I think, not really relevant. It's used in the building industry too. Also in the military (the "swagger stick"?) and "passing the baton" in team running  events. In the era of containerised freight, few people these days would know the origin of the old expression: "batten down the hatches", and even less would have seen it done.  (Hatch battens don't need to be rigid, by the way - they are held in position by multiple wedges, and were sometimes made from mild steel strap). Still, you have made a reasonable point).

    Regardless of whether they are short and semi-rigid, or full length, battens are used on nearly all sails for an entirely different purpose than the "battens" of a junk sail, which are spars in one form or another, and are generally sheeted, just like individual booms.

    Same as "topping lifts" which serve a somewhat different purpose on Western rigs, from the necessary part of a full support sling which they comprise on a junk rig. It's just another mind-set change which is required, which would not be necessary if  junk rig terminology had evolved in a more precise way.

    Precise, unambiguous and intuitive terminology makes things easier to explain and be understood. Those are my reasons for that comment.

    However, it's just a little personal "bugbear" of mine. Most people will agree with you, and I accept that, as I accept the old terminology with all its character and its history. And you are probably correct in pointing out that the original general meaning of "batten" would imply something rigid, like a stick, perhaps from the French "baton"?

    I would normally use the term "batten" when describing a junk sail, and would just resort to the more precise "boomlet" on the odd occasion where it is convenient to emphasise its special purpose, unique to the junk rig.

    Full length battens in the early 1960s. This was an old second-hand sail on a boat my Dad built when I was a boy. I don't know when full length battens first appeared. The sail is shelf foot too, if you look closely. I distinctly remember that detail.

    A better example, 1960s. Mt. Taranaki in the background.

    Last modified: 17 Dec 2024 08:10 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Dec 2024 21:24
    Reply # 13441455 on 13441055

    I'm afraid I disagree with your word 'boomlet', Graeme.  Battens are usually long pieces o wood used to stiffen something: on ships they were also used to hold down the tarpaulin around the hatch.  Moreover, a sail batten was originailly used to stiffen the leach of a sail - I acquired some made of Tufnol when I was building FanShi and used it for a number of purposes.  While they were flexible - one feels on the principle of what bends won't break - certainly the wind pressure on the leach wouldn't not have bent them.  However, if they got caught in the rigging they wouldnt instantly snap.

    Flexible battens such as are now used in 'fully-battened' mainsails have become popularised subsequently to H/McL's terminology, so I think we can stick with battens.  I believe the correct noun for the lowermost batten is still 'boom', because it is attached to mast and sail differently, generally has an attachment to the deck and its function is somewhat different from the other battens.

  • 16 Dec 2024 19:57
    Reply # 13441400 on 13441055
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    John wrote: Most trailer boats, day sailing boats, and weekend cruisers, have one or two sets of reef points and don't require more. Perhaps they don't require 7 panel junk sails with a full set of sheetlets? Putting a 7 panel sail on an 14 foot boat because you can reef down to two or three panels at most strikes me as silly for most uses as the canoeists have shown that isn't necessary - kind of like a sailed down pirate ship.

    I don't agree that it is silly, as there are other reasons for the panels and battens than the ability to endlessly reef. However, the above is a thought-provoking comment and worth considering.

    The modern Chinese lug or junk rig has developed over the last 50 years because of its advantages for short-handed cruising on boats which are generally moored, and there has been a special interest in ocean cruising. It is only in very recent years that attention is more and more becoming focussed again on small, trailerable camper-cruisers, which have their own special requirements (especially quick rigging and de-rigging) and John's uncovering of rigs which were developed for cruising canoes of 150 years ago is of real interest. Both Paul Thompson and Arne Kverneland have designed experimental 3-panel junk sails for very small boats. I do not regard the canoe rigs as junk rigs, rather that they were inspired by such, but instead of tediously arguing the point, I would prefer to congratulate John on digging up some history and giving small boat  or dinghy sailers some further interesting ideas to consider. Speaking of digging up history, I would extend this also to Kevin C. who has given us a series of articles in the JRA magazine on the same subject. 

    John wrote:  The book I cited runs to 670 or so pages and about 50 or so are dedicated to designing, building, and sailing Chinese lug rigged canoes. There is also a section on Chinese junk rig too. I would appreciate a link to those pages.

    I did a study of the Keying voyage some years ago, but did not find much of interest about the rig itself, more interesting to me was the complete ignorance and indifference by the Western public as to how the Chinese rig worked, as demonstrated by the commentators and illustrators at the time.

    Last modified: 16 Dec 2024 20:14 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Dec 2024 18:10
    Reply # 13441332 on 13441055

    Graeme, thanks for fixing the link problem, I didn't know it would be an issue.

    Over 130 years ago the junk rig was being extensively developed in England and in China by Europeans. If you go back to JRA Volume 6 of 1982 you can read an article about Landseer MacKensie who experimented with the rig in the 1860s and 1870s, in yachts and canoes, and his exploits can be read because the book describing them was digitized by Google as were the books at the links in my initial posts.

    Hasler was scooped by 100 years. But, Hasler was focused on designing and building the smallest boat that a solo sailor could take across oceans. For that use variable reefing of a single sail was paramount. The Chinese sailors could have cared less about that requirement. Their boats were working boats with many variants used for specific wind and sea conditions. The river boats had the most battens by far and almost no need for reefing. The mizzen sail on may types of junks sometimes had a single sheet and reefing ability likely wasn't needed because it was a steering and riding sail. Arne is right about the main of the Liberdade but the mizzen appears to have a single sheet.

    The sails used for British canoes had only two or three panels because that was all the sail area they could carry. MacKensie's yacht had more panels than his canoe. The book I cited runs to 670 or so pages and about 50 or so are dedicated to designing, building, and sailing Chinese lug rigged canoes. There is also a section on Chinese junk rig too. It was a time of great experimentation and international influences as the pasttime of yachting was born. There are very detailed drawings and descriptions of the rig. Perhaps 100 or so of those canoes were built and rigged over three or four decades, just a guess, and at least several yachts were built. One, Charm, from the 1870s is attached, it was a centerboarder.

    Most trailer boats, day sailing boats, and weekend cruisers, have one or two sets of reef points and don't require more. Perhaps they don't require 7 panel junk sails with a full set of sheetlets? Putting a 7 panel sail on an 14 foot boat because you can reef down to two or three panels at most strikes me as silly for most uses as the canoeists have shown that isn't necessary - kind of like a scaled down pirate ship.

    I think that it would consistent with the rest of the references in the references document and the intent of the JRA Constitution, "to promote and encourage discussion of junk rig (JR), including its traditional use, its design, and developments of it, and of the building and use of vessels with such rigs and their derivatives", to include them in that document and perhaps link to them in the JRA reference section.

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    Last modified: 16 Dec 2024 19:56 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Dec 2024 10:45
    Reply # 13441169 on 13441147
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Graeme wrote:

    Definition

    To be a proper Chinese lug it must reef and hand in the unique Chinese way, and to do that there must be some form of the three basic elements: boomlets, sheetlet spans and lifts.

    That’s what I think, anyway. 

    Graeme’s definition, above, looks good to me.

    Now I found a photo of Liberdade with the Slocums on board (I think). The photo was quite blurry, but due to the way the mainsail set, I think there were sheetlets in use on that sail. I also think I could spot a block or ‘euphroe’ as a part of that sheetlet setup.

    Note: The fact that I would not call those canoe rigs that John shows us, junkrigs, doesn’t mean I think they are bad. They clearly worked on these small vessels.

    Arne


    Last modified: 16 Dec 2024 12:20 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Dec 2024 05:40
    Reply # 13441147 on 13441055
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    John, your text has gone outside of the visible range because of the URLs at the bottom of your post. I suggest removing them and replacing with links.  [Fixed by Webmaster]

    In the meantime, if anyone wants to read John's post they may do so by copying and pasting it into a regular text processor such as MSWord.

    This discussion has recently been well-thrashed on Facebook Page (International Junk Rig: Sailing Old and New). I take the terms "Chinese lug" and "junk rig" to be synonymous, the controversy being whether or not these interesting, fully-battened canoe rigs (and others) may correctly be classed as junk rigs.

    Arguments over terminology quickly become tedious (eg the good old argument about what is a ketch and what is a yawl etc) and usually a waste of time.

    There is quite a bit of terminology in the junk rig lexicon which is a little unfortunate (the use of the word ”batten”, for example, and “topping lift” for another), which have come about and “stuck” for historical reasons. It would be better if battens had been called “boomlets” since they are spars (similar to a boom) and generally not bendy like most sailing people expect full-length battens to be. Loose terminology can give rise to misunderstanding. However, perhaps that doesn’t really matter too much, provided the reader and the writer always understand each other. It is tedious to make an argument out of it.

    In my opinion, the addition of a couple of full length battens to a lug sail does not create a “Chinese” lug, or junk rig. I would not call the mainsail on the “Nautilus travelling canoe” a Chinese lug, or junk sail, because it lacks some of the essential elements of a Chinese lug, even though at first glance it might look like one. But, if John likes to refer to that delightful canoe rig as a “junk rig" or "Chinese lug"  it does not really matter too much, because he has supplied a detailed diagram, so we can all see clearly what it is, and what it will or will not do.

    ....................

    For the sake of further discussion, in my opinion the special elements which make a lug rig “Chinese” are three-fold, and they are essential to the unique way in which a Chinese lug sail is reefed and handed. In it’s simplest essentials, a Chinese lug sail may be reefed to any desired extent (including lowering completely) by simply slacking the halyard, the handed or reefed part of the sail being secured by taking the slack out of the spanned sheeting system. 

    To achieve this, the sail is divided into panels, bounded by boomlets (or full length “battens”), which are held to the mast by some form of sliding parrel, individually controlled at the leech by sheetlet spans, which in turn are controlled by a sheet. This unique boomlet and sheeting system is what holds down the reefed or handed sail, without the need for reef points, gaskets or any other reefing tackle. (When reefed, one batten sits upon another, the sheetlet span between them becomes slack, the slack is taken in by the sheet, no further attention being necessary to secure the reef). 

    Against this, when the halyard is slacked away, there is a corresponding need to hold the bundle or reefed sail up – which gives rise to the third essential element of a Chinese lug: the lifts, which effectively form a support cradle. There needs to be a “mast lift” or else a paired lift, near the forward end of the bundle, and a pair of aft lifts to hold up the other end (sometimes referred to as topping lifts). These lifts, which may be standing or running, are essential as they take the weight of the reefed sail, or bundle, at all times except when the sail is fully extended. You can't do a Chinese reef without the lifts.

    So, to identify a lug rig as “Chinese”, in my opinion, there must be boomlets (of some kind) held to the mast by parrels (of some kind), which are individually controlled at the leech by sheetlet spans and sheet (in some arrangement) and supported by lifts at the fore and aft ends of the bundle. Without these elements it won’t reef or hand like a junk and therefore it is not a "junk rig" or “Chinese lug” (regardless of what anyone may infer by reading the thoughts or looking at the diagrams of Baden-Powell, Worcester or Slocum).

    This is a very clumsy definition of a “Chinese lug” or  “junk rig” – an attempt to classify the rig by the manner in which it is reefed.

    (Of course, alternatively, one could define a Chinese lug as any kind of lug sail which has been observed on a Chinese vessel by someone in the past. That would be simple, but also it would be useless).

    Of course, there are many possible different shapes and forms of the junk rig, both in ancient and modern times, and many possible embellishments, for example lazy jacks, special running parrels, port-and-starboard sheeting systems, built-in camber etc etc which can be added to improve the suitability of the rig.


    Definition

    To be a correctly classified as a Chinese lug it must reef and hand in the unique Chinese way, and to do that there must be some form of the three basic elements: boomlets, sheetlet spans and lifts.

    That’s what I think, anyway



    Last modified: 16 Dec 2024 16:32 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Dec 2024 19:22
    Message # 13441055

    A few days ago I posted some images to the junk rig Facebook group of rigs on British cruising canoes of the 1870's and 1880s. The designers and builders of those boats had three decades of experience cruising 14 foot/4.25 m sailing boats which they described as cat yawl junk rigs or Chinese lug rigs. The first Chinese junk that most Western eyes saw sailed illegally out of China and arrived in the US in 1847 and to England 1848. That rig was adopted in various ways by American and British sailors who described it variably as a Chinese junk or Chinese lug rig. The British had already been using the rig in western type hulls in China as the Portuguese had before them.

    I've included links below so you can read see the original assessments and drawings from the "bibles" for the British Canoeing and Yachting societies. One the how to sail tome was required to be on every British ship.

    The interesting thing is that because the canoes were so small their sails could be reduced to just two or three panels. All the other lines of the rig were retained but the sheet was led to just the lowest active batten which was right in front of the sailors face. So no sheetlets. Because the rules established for these boats was that they had to be able to be carried by two men, weight was critical so anything that wasn't required was left off. The need to reef was minimal as it was dictated by the small size of the boats and the limited conditions they were sailed in.

    Joshua Slocum in his 1886 boat, Liberdade, also used only one sheet and he as a ship captain had seen junks in China.

    Arne and Paul responded to my post that the rig doesn't meet their criteria for a junk rig so it shouldn't be called one. They only differences I see from their rigs are that fewer panels were used and the sheetlets were reduced to a sheet. The number of panels and battens in Chinese rigs has always been variable. The river junks used a large number on their very tall rigs so they could keep the sail flat not because they needed that many reefing options. None of the publications of historical Chinese rigs are complete catalogs and none of the reporters actually seems to have spoken to Chinese designers, builders, and sailors to record their thoughts on the matter.

    In a recent post about raking the mast forward, Paul responded to Arne, neither you nor I are designing traditional junk rigs, nor are we using traditional junk hulls and materials. We are working with materials and hull forms that have little relation to what the Chinese had. They had large crews and (mostly) poor materials and that drove a lot of their decisions... We in the west today have almost exactly the opposite environment. We have high quality materials and small crews and that should be driving our design process... When Blondie came up with his variant of the junk rig, he took the things that worked towards meeting his design goals from the Chinese, namely a safe easily handled rig for short and single handed sailing. He met his goals brilliantly and his work is the foundation upon which I (and you) work. It's nott however set in stone, I base all my work on the foundation created by Blondie but I'm also a designer and my job is to come up with solutions for problems, not to slavishly reenact a given model."

    I agree with Paul and think that the canoe sailors of the 1880s should be given their due for adapting the Chinese lug rig as a solution to their very specific problems.

    A Manual of Yacht and Boat Sailing

    "Canoe Travelling" by Warrington Baden-Powell (1871)

    Sailing canoes in 1895, from "A Manual of Yacht and Boat Sailing" by Dixon Kemp

    Georg Belitz: Seglers Handbuch (in German)

    The Strange Story of the Chinese Junk Keying at Blackwall in 1848


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    Last modified: 16 Dec 2024 13:15 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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