"Southern Chinese junk main"...?

  • 28 Oct 2024 22:54
    Reply # 13424536 on 13423061

    Thanks, Scott! Like I said, at this point it's been something to keep my brain busy while otherwise turning expensive boat building materials into fine, scratchy dust :) , and like you have, I will probably opt for simplicity + cambers. The priority, the most important thing, is to get water flowing past the keel again.

    I lucked out on this Ariel - her deck is as solid as the day it left the factory, and an outboard model. She's the second I've owned, and I also had an A-30. I've sailed on an SC-23 as well, tho' just the once. Been a fan of the designs of the Swede my entire life. :)

    Thanks again. I may msg you when I get closer to spar time.



  • 28 Oct 2024 14:28
    Reply # 13424240 on 13423061

    Hi Kurt,

    While looking for my first keel boat I spent way too much time driving across most of the eastern half of the USA looking at Alberg 30s and Tritons and Ariels. I never found one that didn't have a deck that was at least a little spongy when I jumped on it.

    Eventually I decided to buy a South Coast 23. This is a less known Alberg design.

    The boat was like a tank. Very sturdy and the hull was happy to handle much more weather than I was personally happy to handle. The boat would heave-to with very little effort on my part.

    I don't have any evidence to support this, but I think the ability to slowly drift sideways down wind has more to do with the hull shape than the rig. I expect a full keel Alberg design will heave-to, or at least forereach, after being converted to a junk rig.

    I would like to encourage you to build the rig that you think will be best for your purposes and report back on what you like and don't like about the result. I am happy with one sail. Maybe you will be happy with two.

    Scott.

  • 26 Oct 2024 22:38
    Reply # 13423838 on 13423061

    Hello Scott - Kurt it is. :) Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply!

    I'm in full agreement with your points re: the relative simplicity of the "regular" junk. That is a whole lot of advantages, while as a bonus - simplifying. There's beauty in that, for sure! After all, I am a believer in this:

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -
    Antoine de Saint-Exupery


    Much preferring hank-ons over furlers for just the reason you state, I've never put a 'roller snarler' on one of my own boats.
    However, in the course of doing rigging work over the years I have seen how manufacturers have developed and improved their systems, and the gear these days, when maintained and used properly has actually become something to which I have much less objection.
    It so happens that in the course of a recent job, I became the recipient of a brand new furler which is of the proper size needed for my boat. So, more info and thoughts to explain my queries here:

    I've asked about this junk main/foresail setup for these reasons: because I hadn't seen it until recently, secondly because I do have that furler, and third is that I already own an extra beefy, if oval shaped, spar.

    By way of explanation, Pearson had the Triton (displacement 6390 #'s) in production when they began building the Ariel (@ 5120 #'s), and I guess for reasons of economy/simplicity, they just used the same rig components on this 20% smaller boat - both spar and standing rigging. That's one of the reasons I chose the Ariel to begin with - those increased scantlings. The Triton is already known as a heavily built, tough boat - making the Ariel even moreso, what with the same and shorter rig.

    I've gutted the boat and am in process of a complete and custom rebuild. I have a month or two before I need to get serious about what rig I am going to use, tho' by far the junk is what I have been planning to use.

    So in my head, while glassing and grinding, since I saw the above pictures I've been kicking the idea around of the possibility of using this spar, set up without the spreaders needed for a tall Bermudian rig, with a junk main, and the foresail as a way to spread some more canvas when desired. Though admittedly more complex than a simple single sailed junk, there are the advantages of a lower aspect rig that a multi-sail boat allows: smaller sails overall (and so easier to handle and less rig stress involved), less heeling moment, and economy of using gear which I have already, saving money for the cruising kitty.
    In addition, as mentioned before, the way she heaves-to with a backed jib is a known quantity.

    The spar is right at 30 feet in length. Stepping it on the keel would use about 5' of that to get to deck height and past the partners. I did some rough calcs using the books and info here at the JRA some months back, and don't think that leaves enough height for a properly sized single junk sail, in addition to which, by not being round, the spar is probably unsuited to the task of being unstayed at any rate.

    I do have a small hull, a Sunfish type daysailer, for which I have some simple plans to add onto in order to make it a camping dinghy. I think probably a good idea will be to build that out and set it up with a junk sail for experience and testing of the rig, before making a decision on my Ariel.

    Last modified: 26 Oct 2024 22:40 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Oct 2024 22:03
    Reply # 13423168 on 13423061

    Hello,

    I was not sure if Kurt is your first name or last name so please excuse the informal greeting.

    In my opinion the 'why' for a sailing rig is almost entirely personal preference. This may be even more true for rigs that are an 'alternative' to the Bermudian rig on the majority of production boats.

    Below are a few reasons why I, personally, prefer to have one sail, not one junk sail and one headsail.

    1. Minimizing running rigging. I have four running lines, including the sheet. This lets me do all the normal sail handing, including reefing.

    2. A stayed rig has dozens or hundreds of small pieces that all must hold to avoid dismasting. An unstayed rig only has one big structural spar.

    3. A single junk sail is self tacking. It is possible to make a headsail self taking as well, but this is not common.

    4. Only one sheet to trim for all points of sail.

    5. No flogging dacron when tacking or easing the sheet for any reason. A single junk sail is very quiet in most any conditions.

    6. A jammed roller on the headstay in a strong wind seems absolutely terrifying.

    7. No need to use 'real' dacron sailcloth at all. The Weathermax LT I used is much easier to handle and sew than fresh stiff dacron.

    8. Side stays will always cause some interference when easing the main sail out all the way. I like the ability to sail by the lee on a beam reach. It feels like magic to sail on the same tack close hulled, then a beam reach, then a run and then to a beam reach on the other side of the hull by adjusting only the sheet.

    9. It is much easier to step and unstep the mast with no shrouds or stays to get tangled.

    10. I am able reef without pointing the bow directly into the wind. In fact, most of the time I can drop the first two or three panels while running dead straight down wind. From what I understand this is not feasible with a roller furling jib.

    Scott.


    edit: four including the sheet.
    edit2: added #10

    Last modified: 25 Oct 2024 19:33 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Oct 2024 17:29
    Message # 13423061

    Hello all - I searched here for info on this so as not to ask Q's answered before, with little to no result. Thus, what is below is mostly conjecture, and I would very much appreciate feedback from those of you who are vastly wiser and more experienced than I am on the topic. :)

    I ran across images of an old and a more current boat (both attached, the more recent set up with modern foresails should be the 2nd pic) with this style of junk main, which I was told is a 'Southern Chinese junk main'.
    It looks like a cross between what I think of as a 'regular' junk, and a lugger. The main appears to be designed such that the area forward of the mast fits under and inside of the shrouds, thus avoiding catching on them when sheeted full out (tho' yes there will be chafe on the sail from shrouds, when fully out).
    However, having shrouds and forestay would make it possible to fly a foresail, while the junk main would have almost all the advantages of a 'regular' junk. With a roller on the forestay, sails could still be controlled from the cockpit.

    My boat heaves-to wonderfully with just a backed jib and the tiller lashed down, forereaching comfortably with little leeway, and so this is a great and depended upon tactic in strong winds and a rough sea state. A foresail is also an efficient, 'clean' sail to run in general.
    It seems as if this type of rig would allow me to have a slightly shorter mast and smaller main, without losing overall sail area in lighter wind - I could always fly the jib along with the main.

    The third picture shows my boat hull design, for reference. I would think adding a short bowsprit would be advantageous, however, nothing near what is seen on the 2nd boat picture.

    I could write more (and likely will ;) in response), but at this point you should have enough 'ammo' for the following:

    What am I missing, where am I wrong? Why not use this setup? Is there a drawback I am not understanding?


    Thanks in advance for your input!

    3 files
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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