Luff optimisation

  • 25 Aug 2024 08:23
    Reply # 13397533 on 13396998
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    The first two photos from Paul’s and Toni’s Ilvy  (23. August) show the leading edge webbing type boltrope pointing (slightly) the wrong way. Frankly, I cannot say I have seen this on my sails. This could have one or more of three reasons:

    ·         I make the camber curve by shaping the barrel rounds with a bendy wooden spline. For that reason, there is just a moderate curve near the luff. I decided against a more ‘advanced’ foil after learning that the shape would be ruined anyway on the port tack, and the sail still worked well on both tacks, with flying telltales at the leech.

    Paul S. has used CAD to make that barrel shape, and has clearly (from the photos) added a good deal more camber to the luff area than I use.

    ·         At each batten end, there are two loops; a big one for the batten to rest in, and a small horizontal one for tying the sail to the batten. This last one appears to have been made differently from the way I do it. I start fitting the small loops by stitching half of it to the reverse side of the sail. Then I wrap it around the sail’s edge and stitch the other half onto the front side, just leaving a gap, big enough to tie on that lashing. This way, the lashing forces the edge of the sail to sit next to the batten.

    ·         I stitch the boltrope onto the assembled sail. The method lets me keep control of the tension in that boltrope. I wonder if Paul S by wrapping it into a ‘sock’ of sailcloth, may have ended up with a little bit slack boltrope? I could be wrong on this one.

    Anyway, if we study the big numbers, Ilvy’s sail has been a roaring success. She clearly sails like a witch, both upwind and downwind.
    To me, her main success factors are a big sail area, a cambered sail and good helm balance.

    As long as it is easy to achieve attached airflow behind the sail, verified by the leech telltales, one knows that both sides of the sail are working, unlike with a flat sail.
    The parasite drag factors, like wrinkles, lazyjacks etc., appear to play a smaller role than the big drag factors like induced drag.


    I try to keep focus on the big factors.

    Arne


  • 25 Aug 2024 02:59
    Reply # 13397517 on 13396998
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Sharp edge foils, a taut luff, and the entry and exit shape of a panel foil

    These are some thoughts, as I have tried to unlearn what I thought I knew in the past, and attempted to learn anew what makes a good junk sail.

    The first difference between a junk rig and a bermudan rig is that the bermudan rig is taut, everything under stress – headsail luffs as tight as a bar. To maximise efficiency, the modern bermudan rig needs high-tech, non-stretch canvas and twang-tight rigging. And, unlike the Chinese lug, a western lug sail too needs a taut luff, under quite a lot of tension.

    The junk rig is not stretched out taut – just a little tension perhaps, but essentially it should drape, or stand, without the stresses and forces used in western rigs to achieve a nicely shaped foil. And, of course, there is no twang-tight forestay either. Choice of sail cloth is less critical. Stresses on the hull (and the mind) are greatly reduced. True, a somewhat more complicated arrangement of running rigging is often necessary, together with judicious sail design, to get the sail to drape and set nicely. But no need for the high forces applied by a tight fore stay, cunningham, downhauls, kicking straps, central sheeting systems, sheet winches etc as seen on western rigs.

    Mauro wrote: …my luff looks also quite taut…Actually, looking at the photo, the luff is not “taut” at all. I know what he means. Mauro just used the wrong word to express what he means. Mauro’s luff is as it should be on that sail – nice and straight, and aligned with the rest of the cloth, standing nicely. It looks very good.

    Paul Th wrote: “…the layering enables the luff to stand without distortion or collapsing…” and I think that’s the right word to use: “stand”.

    With some sail designs, for example those with parallelogram lower panels, it looks nice if the luff is straight. Whether it adds to windward performance I do not know, but if the sail design drawing shows a straight luff, then it will look better if the sail itself has a nice straight luff. But not taut.

    However, Some of the traditional Chinese sails had a curved luff. Slieve’s Poppy sail has a curved luff in the upper panels which is aesthetically very beautiful – and testament to the statement that a junk sail should not have a taut luff but should “stand” without undue tension.

    Here is the very latest from Paul Th.

     (You saw it first here!) just off the press, a cute little dinghy sail, designed and built by Paul Th and being trialled by Marcus on a Welsford “Tender Behind” dinghy.


    It’s a different sort of sail from the Van Loan and Hasler/McLeod derivatives we have been discussing in recent times – it is a low A.R., cambered, fanned sail which owes more to the Hong Kong junk, and Vincent Reddish, with Paul’s emerging flair combined. It has a pronounced curve in the luff. Not taut. Not straight. Standing nicely.

    Entry angle. Tabling, webbing or bolt rope?

    A bermudan sail will usually have a bolt rope on the luff, for a number of reasons. One of them is that the camber in a bermudan sail is derived partly from the luff being cut with a curve, but pulled tight and straight with a strong downhaul at the tack, or modestly tensioned and attached to a bar-tight forestay. This induces some of the camber in the sail. The luff needs to be well-reinforced against stretch, with a bolt rope, if for no other reason than that.

    We don’t do that on a junk sail. Camber is built into the sail in other ways, and the luff is not swigged down tight like a lot of western sail types need to be, including the western lug. The individual panels of a junk sail might each be straight cut at the luff, whatever, the luff detail needs to withstand stretching from the weight of the rig, and wind forcesbut will not be subjected to the extra load of a tack downhaul.

    I like Slieve’s bolt rope detail at the luff of his SJR jibs for different reasons – a more exaggerated entry angle can be built into the jibs, the camber running smoothly all the way to the bolt rope. A tabling or a wide webbing on SJR jibs might be a little stiff? Those little jib panels run out with a tight curve right from the very bolt rope, with no flat spot at the luff. It’s a very small detail which I doubt makes much difference, but as perfection can be achieved here in a very easy way, why not?

    Also, the parrel downhauls on a SJR can be set firmly enough so that the modest downhaul forces on the battens can extend and come into play at the jib luffs, to induce just a enough tension to keep the luff nice and tidy and straight – but not with anything resembling the tension applied to the luff of a western sail. Still, it makes sense to me to make the bolt rope from a non-stretch material such as dyneema. (I doubt if this luff dwnhaul notion can be applied to a contiguous sail in any simple way, although Paul Sch has been investigating it. I wouldn't have thought that it matters).

    However, for the somewhat less exaggerated entry angle of the mains aerofoil - or for the aerofoil of a normal, contiguous sail, the entry angle might be a little less as the curve is a little less pronounced at the luff, and I can’t see that it would make much difference to the entry shape if a bolt rope or a webbing or a tabling were used at the luff. There are reasons why some people prefer one detail over the other, but I doubt if entry shape comes into it.

    Leech The leech is a slightly different story. I never had the pleasure of owning a bermudan sail with a nice leech – I never had the money for a new sail, and all I ever had were always a bit stretched and fluttered a bit, sometimes hooked at the leech and the battens necessary for a roached leech were always a pain in the neck. It seems bermudan sails need an adjustable leech line but I never figured out how to adjust one without inducing more hook. Quite frankly, I never owned a bermudan sail that had a decent-looking leech, roached or otherwise, and glad to turn my back on that rig and not think about it again.

    I would not like to have a bolt rope or a leech line on the leech of a junk sail. It seems to be sufficient to lay the cloth parallel to the leech if possible, and to use traditional tabling - or a strong webbing  - (or a light webbing in combination with a little bit of tabling which I tried on the dinghy sail I made, and I thought it looked quite good). The aerofoil shape is more or less flat at the leech, so the shape will be, if anything, improved by a tabling or a wide webbing which is stiff and flat. There are other considerations, such as structure, but I am discussing shape only. Paul Th’s tabled leeches are beautiful and an inspiration to me. I can’t quite get my head around the single webbing that Arne has used so successfully, and I compromised last time with a light webbing and some extra sail cloth overlapping, just to try and make it look a little bit like Paul’s trademark detail !

    Having said that, as Arne has reminded us many times – the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and either tabling or webbing must be OK at the leech, because they have both been proven to perform perfectly well, and to last. Either way, the shape of the sail at the leech seems to remain good.


    Last modified: 25 Aug 2024 06:01 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 24 Aug 2024 22:23
    Reply # 13397489 on 13396998

    The Amiina type rig in no more Alpha intolerant than any Bermudian cruising rig. This is a fact of life with a single skin sharp edge foil. If other junk rigs appear more tolerant then they are not achieving an ‘In the groove performance’. Of course Weaverbird’s round luffed wingsail rig would be more Alpha tolerant, but there is a significant difference in complexity. As you know I believe in the KISS system. For any long distant sailing I would want to use wind vane gear to keep in the groove, and Edward seemed to have success with the ultra cheap gear I built for Amiina.

    When I was working my employer had an offshore sailing club which had 2 boats in which I used to teach RYA sailing courses. One was a Westerly Centaur with a roller heasdsail, a design with a reputation of poor windward performance, but I found it an ideal setup for teaching Day Skippers as it could give reasonable upwind performance if carefully sailed with good sail trim. The other boat was a First 35 fully fitted out for half or three quarter ton racing with all the tweeking and trimming devices and a twin groove headsail foil for separate headsails. Great with an experienced crew but it was a handful if the trainees were of competent crew standard. The headsails set beautifully with the head foil and a series of tell tales across the sail would show smooth flow all the way from the foil. This is what I was trying to achieve by having the jib panel luffs free to swivel loose on the taught bolt rope, and it seemed to work. The difference in the two club boats was a clear indicator of what was important to sail upwind, and what I should try to incorporate into an upwind junk rig.

    This smooth flow right from the luff is important for best windward performance, so rather than use simple round to give the camber in the jibs I devised the angled shelf foot in an effort to improve the entry angle over as much of the height of each panel as possible. I feel the effort was worth it.

    On the other ‘mast balance’ thread I said that I used a leech bolt rope, but that is not really correct. The main panels were always built with the cloth thread line parallel to the leech, and not on the bias. This encouraged me to use round and broadseam. This is normal Bermudian sail making practice, and I simply used hem and tabling with the thread line parallel to the leech. On Poppy I fitted an adjustable leech line (3mm pre-streatch) as with normal Bermudian practice, but despite me giving the rig a hard time the adjustment was never used. Even so, I still continued to add a fixed leech line in all rigs, I suppose as an insurance policy. The strength of the leech is in the hem/tabling which lies flat and gives a smooth exit.

    To me the difference between professional sailmaking and my efforts is money and interest in getting what I want. It’s only when well underway that I sort out exactly what I am trying to achieve. Try something in this panel, and something different on the next one and I might learn something. The Amiina Mk2 rig has quite a few improvements and simplifications over the first Poppy rig which I wouldn’t have discovered if I had tried to instruct a professional. The Amiina Mk1 rig was professionally built to my instructions and I wondered if would have been easier just to do it myself.

    Enough for now,

    Cheers, Slieve.


    Last modified: 25 Aug 2024 08:04 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Aug 2024 18:48
    Reply # 13397459 on 13397349

    Professionally versus amateur-made sails

    Arne, anyone who is willing to put in the time and effort can make sails like I do. My philosophy is to make the best sail that I can, using the best materials that I  know of to do the the job, applying all that I have learned to every sail that I make while still looking for ways to improve my methods and the sail that I produce. 

    The sails that I make are not cheap, Weathermax and Top Gun 9 or Contender Stormlight are not cheap fabrics,  neither is high quality thread or basting tape, nor is the 40 to 60 hours of labour that it takes to make the sails.

    The point is, I make sails that should last ten years or more under New Zealand conditions. The cloth materials  are products of the petroleum industry and are not environmentally friendly (currently there is nothing that is environmentally friendly that can offer same benefits...) so I feel very strongly that I must use those materials as efficiently as possible and that means taking the time and making the effort to build the best sails that I know how to build.

    The only real difference between myself and many others who build sails (amateur or professional) is that ì build the best sail that I know how. Not every sail I make turns out as perfect as Annie's one because I'm always trying something new but (fortunately) they have all been satisfactory so far. However I'm on tether hooks with every new sail that I build.

    David Tyler taught me the basics of sailmaking when he was in New Zealand, I've taken what he taught me, added my own ever evolving experience and applied it to the work on hand.

    Last modified: 24 Aug 2024 18:55 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Aug 2024 14:24
    Reply # 13397377 on 13396998

    …my luff looks also quite taut…

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    Last modified: 24 Aug 2024 14:26 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Aug 2024 11:44
    Reply # 13397354 on 13396998

    Professionally versus amateur-made sails

    Arne, the only essential difference between a professional and an amateur is that a professional needs to work fast and efficiently, to make a living, whereas an amateur can take as much time as necessary to do a first rate job! 

  • 24 Aug 2024 09:58
    Reply # 13397349 on 13396998
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Professionally versus amateur-made sails

    The photo below of Paul’s perfect sail makes it necessary to divide between professionally made (= expensive) and amateur-made (= much less expensive) sails.

    Have a look at Ingeborg’s home-made sail, below. This is almost a worst-case photo. Here, every possible wrinkles have been exposed in all their glory, in the sharp sunlight. It is clear that this sail will not sell that well  -  but it still works just fine. The camber is as good as it gets on the port tack, and the luff and leech are nice and taut, without any fluttering. In addition, there is no hooked leech either, even with only a webbing boltrope.  The running lines holding the sail here are, apart from the sheet and halyard, just the parrel pair THP-YHP. No downhaul.

    I congratulate Paul for his fine workmanship, and wish him good luck with his business.. On the other hand, I remind you that amateur-made sails can be made to perform and last very well, even by first-timers  -  but perfectly wrinkle-free, these sails are not...

    Arne


    (from Section 8 of my photo albums)

  • 24 Aug 2024 05:30
    Reply # 13397335 on 13396998

    I layer my luffs just like I layer my leaches but not to the same extent as the loads at the luff are much less. However the layering enables the luff to stand without distortion or collapsing. The layering is a feature of all my sails, even dinghy ones and I have to admit, it's why my sails take so long to build. Getting the results that I show is not particularly easy.

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  • 23 Aug 2024 21:58
    Reply # 13397251 on 13396998
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Arne said: Btw. according to Graeme’s reports, his Splinter type SJR is not very alpha tolerant, which surprised me.

    I am a bit out of my league talking about "alpha tolerance", but I did raise that as a thought. I said that it might be my own indifferent helming, while I was bearing in mind the tests that were done that did seem to suggest Weaverbird (soft wingsail) might be a tiny bit better than Amiina ("Splinter type" SJR) in that respect (alpha tolerance). I have a feeling that could well be the case, but more testing would need to be done before any strong statement could be made. 

    The luffs on my Serendipity LOOK good, and when she is in the groove she goes very well to windward (partly a good hull shape), but if you "take your eye off the ball" she drops quickly back to just ordinary. That's good enough for me. The helmsperson can make a big difference, and I am pretty sloppy on the helm. I remember in one of the Tall Ships one year sailing on Fantail with her new sail, and Linda on the helm, the first time I have ever been able to observe, at first hand, excellent helming: concentrating, following  every wind shift etc. (I have mostly only ever sailed on my own and the only race I ever entered, when I was a kid living down the wrong end of the Tauranga harbour, I came a convincing last). And since then I have often thought: wow, I wish I could give Linda L the helm on my boat on one of these junkets, you might see a boat and rig that in the right conditions can punch above its weight.

    I have a feeling that luffs are important if you want the best performance, but it might be a case of 90% effort to get the last 10 of performance. That's well within any margin of error, given our inability to set up proper tests - and well within the variability due to individual helming skills and also probably only discernable in a hull which is designed for a bit of performance. 

    There's more important things to consider on a cruising boat IMHO - but we still can't help looking for that little extra, can we?  It's a good thing really.

    Within the context of this discussion, the Amiina rig is pretty simple, and very easy to handle. I guess that's a kind of "tolerance" worth considering too.

    I don't have a decent photo of the luff hem and enclosed boltrope detail.


    Last modified: 23 Aug 2024 22:54 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Aug 2024 21:13
    Reply # 13397218 on 13396998

    Consider the Freedom wrap-around sails; the sleeve-luffed Wharram wingsails; my earliest wrap-around wingsail efforts. They are all aerodynamically efficient. They all suffer from an awful lot of vertical drag when hoisting and lowering. The sail gets worn, dirty and creased in the area around the mast. Solve those issues, and you have a good and very efficient cruising rig.  

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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