Lacing cambered panels individually to battens?

  • 16 Jan 2024 10:40
    Reply # 13301560 on 13301548

    Good morning Arne, Graeme, Paul and David!

    Arne, you were not wrong about anything! You are correct in guessing that I had to stick several panels together at night to keep Irene going the next day, or part of it. Hence the basting tape. I do like the idea of cutting each panel as I go, as it varies the work and you see progress in a different way. The sail did NOT always set well in our first cruise, but after David and (I think) your suggestions, we did get it a lot better. Certainly it performed well, and I'm sure Andy who has it now will get many years' use out of it.

    Method 'C'? One thing:  Am I right in thinking only 2 seams are sewn in all? And that the set-up will be a little more exacting getting all the bits to stay in the right place? But with enough bulldog clips initially, and then a slightly upgraded STAPLER, is it that simple or am I missing something? Would it be a good idea to use the tape to keep the pocket edges together, even in  short 'tacks', (I mean like welder's tacks) to maintain better control of the sandwich?

    The sewing machine: From a well-recommended dealer in used machines on Ebay, we had bought a semi-industrial sewing machine on which the tension was impossible to control. They took it back, but when it returned not even our pro could make it work to her satisfaction. So she continued with her own domestic machine, though she did replace that before completing the job as it was struggling. As you say, Arne, in your guides, a domestic machine may well be up to the job, just test it well, before you start, on the max thicknesses of cloth that you expect to encounter. I look forward to fettling that machine and doing it myself next time! 

    Graeme I, too, am recovering from a bug. I've been lucky it's not too bad this time. This seems to be the only opportunity I get to think about enjoyable things like planning the new sail! I hope you are over the bug soon. The general advice seems to be don't hurry it. It will be interesting to see what your 'malingering' comes up with in terms of timber batten sails. I second your sentiments of gratitude for Arne's generosity in sharing his knowledge 100%.

    Thanks, Paul, for your comments. I think, as you allude to, the hinged panels might be a bit trying for a total amateur. I can see they require skill and care in the setting up.  Almandra's sail looks fantastic! All roads point to Arne's Amateur Method 'B' (or maybe 'C'?), for ease and speed with a great result at the end.

    David you are very tactful re our sail. It did work well in the end, and the next one will be even better! Thanks for including the links to Method 'C' and successors. Junk rig: there really IS 'something for everyone'!

    Pol.



  • 16 Jan 2024 09:20
    Reply # 13301551 on 13301421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Arne wrote:

    Arne: What can I say?
    I almost run out of air. 


    Arne’s notes are worth studying carefully and I doubt if there is any method quicker and more practical. The notes are not perfect – I think the write-ups are a bit weak on the description of adding bolt-webbing, for example, where a little bit too much is left to the imagination – (unless there is something else I have missed!) (And I do still struggle to accept the idea of bolt-roped leeches, even though Arne provides enough evidence that in the case of a junk sail, it is a proposition worth considering). Anyway, scan-reading has become a habit for most of us, and some of Arne’s notes do require re-reading a few times. Quite a bit of reading and re-reading is required actually. We can talk about that later.


    I’ll get around to reporting on that, and the timber batten sail, in due course. In the meantime, let me praise Arne for his generosity and patience as well as his fertile mind. I am sure Pol joins me in this.

    On behalf of all DIY sail makers: Thank you Arne.



    Having just read through that Chapter 5 of TCPJR, I too am not entirely happy with it.
    Maybe it should be edited or even rewritten. I will have to consult with my master of English (Graeme) and see what can be done to it.

    As for bolt-roped leeches; on an ordinary gaff- or lugsail, such a boltrope is a recipe for a sail with a hooked leech. On a cambered panel JR the dominating tension in the sail cloth is from luff to leech, so there is no real hooked leech here.

    Arne


    Ingeborg, May 2022  -  no hooked leech here...
    (full size photo in my photo album section 8)

    PS: Btw. both Annie's sail and that of Ingeborg have been taken from my stack of Johanna (70) master sails, this one with AR = 1.90.

    Last modified: 16 Jan 2024 11:13 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Jan 2024 09:08
    Reply # 13301550 on 13300982

    Since my name has been mentioned, I'd better put in my two pennies worth here.

    As Paul indicates, making separate panels, or sections of a sail, is a good way of managing to build very large, heavy sails, but is not worth considering otherwise.  For a sail of Annie's size, perhaps making it in two parts joined by a "hinge" would make life easier.

    I'm going on rather hazy memory at this stage, but as far as my old brain can remember, Annie's first junk sail looked not as good as it could have, certainly, but still, it was as good as a sail needs to be in order to work well. I can agree very readily with Arne that laying two panels one on top of another and sewing them together along their edges is much, much easier than feeding a roll of cloth through the machine, for someone unused to sailmaking; but I think that there are slightly better ways of doing the pockets than "method B", as far as appearance (not necessarily performance) is concerned, and can't be persuaded otherwise.

  • 16 Jan 2024 08:41
    Reply # 13301548 on 13300982
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Dear Pol.
    I generally don’t like to be wrong, but this time I surely am glad!
    I guess your main problem was that you could not do the sewing yourself. This forced you to tape together several panels(?) before they could be sewn together. That must have been a pain.

    Next time I suggest you start with teaching yourself how to operate a sewing machine. Once you have learned to adjust the thread tension correctly, producing a neat seam along a line is no more difficult than cutting along a line with a bandsaw.

    Moreover, with yourself at the sewing  machine, you are free to staple on, and then sew on panels, one by one. Personally, I even cut out each panel as I go.

    I think you will do fine  -  now with a stapler  -  and yourself at the sewing machine...

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Last modified: 16 Jan 2024 09:05 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Jan 2024 04:09
    Reply # 13301510 on 13300982

    Hi Pol,

    I've built 6 sails that had separate panels to date. The first two were for Aphrodite which used battens with sail tracks. It worked well enough but the battens were very heavy. The rest were staggered pocket systems that used the batten like a pin in a hinge to join the panels, this method adds no extra weight and works well but the setting up is a long process.

    My conclusion having done six sails is that its not worth the extra time and work involved. I'd only make a separate panel sail if I had a big sail to make in a small space. Which is the issue I had with Almanda's (ex Le Canard Bleu, the green sails) sails.

    The quickest and simplest way of making a cambered junk sail is Arne's barrel cut with batten pockets done with Method B and following his instructions to the letter. You can get a more elegant ending to the batten pockets if you stop then 200mm or so short of the luff & leach and flatten them as shown in the photo of the yellow sail.

    I of course seldom use Arne's barrel cut (I think I've made three sails using that method) but I do sometimes use his Method B batten pocket method with the endings done as mentioned above. It's a brilliant way of doing it.

    4 files
    Last modified: 16 Jan 2024 05:51 | Anonymous member
  • 15 Jan 2024 23:32
    Reply # 13301421 on 13300982
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Arne: What can I say?
    I almost run out of air. 

    Do I detect a note of slight exasperation here? It’s understandable and probably as much my fault as anyone else’s.

    I had better confess. I have had a couple of goes at reporting here, but deleted each time as it didn’t seem relevant and I can never seem to make it brief enough. Here goes with my confession: I too have been playing around during the last few weeks trying to “improve” on Arne’s carefully worked out and very clever method (the method B of back-to-back seaming in conjunction with quick attachment of batten pockets to the stub seam). And I have barraged Arne with a number of questions which would have been answered had I read his notes more carefully. Arne has been remarkably patient – perhaps Pol's post came at the wrong time, and was just “the last straw”?

    Arne’s notes are worth studying carefully and I doubt if there is any method quicker and more practical. The notes are not perfect – I think the write-ups are a bit weak on the description of adding bolt-webbing, for example, where a little bit too much is left to the imagination – (unless there is something else I have missed!) (And I do still struggle to accept the idea of bolt-roped leeches, even though Arne provides enough evidence that in the case of a junk sail, it is a proposition worth considering). Anyway, scan-reading has become a habit for most of us, and some of Arne’s notes do require re-reading a few times. Quite a bit of reading and re-reading is required actually. We can talk about that later.

    We all have our own special skills and special preferences due to what materials are available at the time, what particular problems we are facing at any particular time, and often there are good reasons for not just following instructions “by rote”. I had my reasons for doing things a little differently, and have learned a lot in the last couple of weeks (which was partly my intention anyway) so I don’t apologise – but in fairness to Arne, and other experienced pioneers who have so generously packaged and shared their ideas – these methods are integrated packages and when you take bits and pieces and add your own ideas – good new things can be learned and occasionally even progress can be made – but it is highly unlikely that the job will end up quicker or easier - and quite possibly the result won't be better, either.

    I ended up making two dinghy sails, both I am quite pleased with – one with flat seams (yes, I like basting tape) and my purpose was to use timber battens and eliminate batten pockets – a solution that I think can suit a some dinghy people quite well, depending of what resources  and skills they have available (though I wouldn’t do that for a sail much bigger than about 16 sqm – and I’ve done it successfully on a 16 sq m sail, by the way). I still like the angled shelf foot method, as it happens, but have developed a new and real respect for the barrel-rounding method of building camber. Also, in the process, I learned to have a great deal of admiration for Arne’s very smart and practical method of assembling and seaming a sail – if adopted in its entirety.

    I’m malingering at the moment, isolating as a result of a rapid second occurrence of covid, and the sewing machine and table are still set up. Starting to rather enjoy sewing, so I’m now filling in the isolation time, and using up the scraps,  by making some test panels which I hope to inflate with a leaf-blower and see what things can be learned about the various ways of making a panel.


    I’ll get around to reporting on that, and the timber batten sail, in due course. In the meantime, let me praise Arne for his generosity and patience as well as his fertile mind. I am sure Pol joins me in this.

    On behalf of all DIY sail makers: Thank you Arne.


    Last modified: 16 Jan 2024 05:12 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Jan 2024 20:45
    Reply # 13301340 on 13300982

     Arne,

    Oh dear I am afraid my memory has played tricks on me and this has served only to inaccurately describe my first attempt at sail-making following you Amateur Method B, which in turn has given you a bad impression of your humble student :( I am very sorry for this. 

    I have just looked at my diary of that time (June/July 2017) for the first time, to refresh my memory... Firstly, I am happy to say that my description of "pulling panels together" etc were inaccurate, as of course I did use your Method B correctly at this point, laying one over the other for sewing the seams joining panels. And it was like magic. Though, as I said, I had to prepare these for someone else to do the actual sewing because our machine was not working... However, reading between my diary lines I can see that I got in a real stew over taping the panels, and subsequently the batten pockets together. The basting  tape was a nightmare, forming tiny wrinkles in the join where none had been before on the dry run/practise, even if I started in the middle of the 6m length and worked outwards to the ends.  This was accentuated with the top panels where the rounding is very slightly different as the camber reduces over those 3. The OTHER thing about the tape is that it can stick the sewing machine needles which is a pain. It'll be stapler, stapler, stapler next time, Arne!

    The other mistake I mention here for the benefit of any others who might be coming this way, is that I used a kind of what we call "soft board" (actually it is hardboard, a cheap low density wood fibre product which I use for making rough templates in my woodyard). Anyway I had a few sheets of it and tried it as my template material. But it was a tad too heavy and even after rubbing it with beeswax it still gripped the cloth too much and dragged it around a bit when fine-tuning the position. Was very annoying and later I think I got some 120gsm lining paper which was easier. Needless to say, as Master had suggested this in the first place.

    I think DT was a little disparaging of our efforts at sail-making, but nothing more than that. So I was quite pleased when he reported that our Annie (6 tons and 30') was pointing higher in the very light breeze than was his Weaverbird, a much more springy vessel. Later in the cruise and in 2019 we did manage to get rid pretty of much all of the wrinkles (following your and DT's advice if I recall correctly, as you had by then seen some photos of the boat sailing) proving that they were nothing whatsoever to do with the sail-making or your Amateur Method B, but more to do with our getting to grips with setting our sail properly.

    And that sail was a joy! We have never before had so much great sailing.

    Thank you again, Arne.

    Pol.

  • 15 Jan 2024 15:11
    Reply # 13301175 on 13300982
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    What can I say?
    I almost run out of air. When Pol was to construct his sail, he had access to Chapter 5 of my TCPJR, in addition to photos etc. I thought I had spelled the message about how to assemble the sail by using Amateur Method B, thoroughly enough. This was how I thought he did it.


    However, today, this very morning, Pol described in an e-mail to me how they had struggled to join the round, mismatching curves of each panel together, using basting tape and pushing a lot of cloth through the sewing machine. This tells me that he/they deviated completed from my recommended method. I shall only refer to one line from Pol’s letter:

    I've seen discussions of building a trolley/slide for the sewing machine, but still, the neat marrying of those curved panel edges and pockets requires patience

    Well, joining two batten panels only takes minutes with the Amateur Method, and then a few more minutes to add the batten pockets  -  not hours as must have been the case when Annie’s sail was constructed.

    I remember David Tyler saying that Annie’s sail looked ‘very, very bad’. My reaction was rather blunt, so now I must apologize to David: He probably was right.

    I rub it in. Read through that Chapter 5 once more  -  don’t just browse through it  -  and you will among others find Fig 5.8 which shows that by laying two adjacent panels together back-to-back, the rounded curves will match. Then by stapling them together, that panel-joining seam will be easy to put on.

    Pol, I bet, if you leave the way you did it last time, and bring out an office stapler instead, you will save heaps of man-hours. Only on those places where you have to add cloth to a batten panel (prior to assembly), does the flat seam makes sense, and this is where basting tape may be useful.

    Good luck!

    Arne


    Last modified: 15 Jan 2024 17:43 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Jan 2024 12:06
    Reply # 13301121 on 13300982

    Hi Graeme and Len,

    Thank you very much for your responses. 

    Graeme I realised that Paul's beautiful shelf-footed sail would be made as a complete sail and attached to the battens as such, but just didn't express myself very clearly ;) I'm sure top quality eyelets and lashing line would be essential. I'm interested in the idea of reinforcing pads. I've not seen Wayward before! Will look her up. In Graham Cox's Hall of Fame article, the image of Kris Larsen's Kehaar and her 'shredded sail' (on P 17 of JRA Magazine number 77, June '18) with which he managed to sail her safely into port, will stay with me forever!

    Yes, it really is the thought of handling those long seams of sewing and moving the whole bundle that got me thinking about this method. Also the cutting out and sewing of batten pockets, which isn't in itself hard. The idea of only ever having to  shape the panel and hem it along its long sides appeals! I need to try experimenting with some cloth and eyelets.

    Len you make a very good point about lashing two panels with the same lashing. With any luck the only time I would be 'splitting' the sail might be to carry it to storage, but I'll look at ways of lashing panels individually. I imagine the lashing as in Graeme's photo of Pango's sail could be a neat way of attaching two panels at the same time, and would be a quicker job overall. Ming Ming II's fabric 'hinges' interested me when he made them, but again I'm trying to avoid the slightly intricate sewing work, and spread the workload to the whole crew ;)

    I've looked again at Paul McKay's Origami method. I am not sure if the straight line taper in the flat panel would produce the desired effect in anything other than a Split Junk Rig. Sadly we can't have one of those, as I was keen to try years ago, but our accommodation won't allow that more inboard mast position.

    Thanks again for your input!

    Pol.

  • 15 Jan 2024 05:43
    Reply # 13301088 on 13300982
    Anonymous wrote:

    Her sails being made of individual panels lashed to the battens is what caught my eye.

    ...

    what if I make all the barrel-shaped panels, to be lashed to the battens individually, and not sewn to their neighbour?

    Ok, sounds good. I think a number of people have done this or a variation, see also Ming Ming II with its "hinge" style which has since been copied by others. While you are looking at that also see the "origami" sail which is totally different being a split JR variation. However, it does show a variation with a lot of gap between panels. I think, but am not sure, that I have also seen lashings used as a way of determining camber. That is, the panel is rectangular and the lashings are all different length to determine camber... certainly more leakage in that case.

    Lashings can be done in a number of different ways, but all would be simpler if the eyes can be kept at the same spacings so the panels can be lashed "together" at each station.

    Lashed together means you have to undo three panels to remove one (one and two halves?). This would be the same as the hinge style I guess.

    Anyway, I would expect it to sail one way or the other and if a full sail pack is too heavy, a small loss of power would still be acceptable. If you are lacing close to the battens, I think that loss would be very small, less than some of the other methods which have none the less proved satisfactory.

    Let us know how it goes.

    Len

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software