You are right Eric, minis are beautiful!

Your idea sounds intriguing, but honestly I don't have the knowledge to judge...

I was speculating on a cat ketch version of this but on a balanced hull. Something like a Kirby's N.I.S. boat with two of those wing sails....But as I said I have no idea of something like that would make sense at all.

Sorry for parasitizing this thread :)

Hi Eric,

I think that something similar has already been done…

Look like a pretty wild ride :)

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fY9IRxXTBZo&feature=share

Eric,

well, much as I defend your right to play with your spinnaker, I think most junkies appreciate the good, safe and simple downwind performance of the JR. Improving the downwind performance without needing the spinnaker was a big motif for me to convert my first boat, Malena (JRA Newsletter 24).

I think most of the man-overboard situations during round-the-cans racing stems from foredeck crews struggling with foresails or spinnakers.  

Cheers,
Arne

Arne wrote:

Plan B  -  and C

Len, in case having the mast through the middle of your berth is a show-stopper, here is a possible plan B.
On the sailplan below, the sail has not been moved, but the mast step has moved aft to the shown position (the mast top is in the ‘old’ position). The resulting mast rake is very moderate, and well inside what others have tried. A

That is looking very promising.

little more unusual is the moving of the whole mast (and thus rig) about 250mm to port  -  or the access to the forepeak would be blocked. This will leave the mast at the side of one berth. Hopefully, one of you are not that tall. Don’t worry about the offset rig, sailing wise. You will hardly notice the difference. The offset mast will give you more deck space for anchor handling as well. It will, however be more of a challenge to fit a good deck partner to the mast, but that is your problem.

The deck partners will be my problem where ever they are :)  As happens, this is one place where our boat differs from the plan. The sink on the stbd side of the head has been removed and the bulkhead on the stbd side is actually pretty much straight forward of the galley counter. It appears it has always been that way because the door still fits. So it is quite possible that entry into the berth would be slightly harder but perhaps not that bad even with the mast centred. I had already thought of shifting the mast to port so it is not "off the table" but I think I will clamp a 2x6 at centre and see how entering the berth goes from there. A step might help.

Plan C
In case even this puts you off from going junk, I suggest you keep the Bermuda rig and optimise it for easy handling. That rig doesn’t look bad in the first place: It is not too small, and the use of double lower shrouds has two benefits:

• ·         It does away with the baby-stay (a short inner stay), which is a pain in the everywhere; wearing on the poor foresail each time you tack.
• ·         The three shrouds will sort of cage in the crew working at the mast.

I agree, I would not want yet another stay on my already crowded fore deck and I already use the shrouds as hand holds all the time. My only complaint is that to comfortably move forward, I pretty much have to step up onto the cabin because there is not really enough room to walk on the deck while passing the shrouds. This is not a problem for working at the mast where one will have to be on the cabin anyway but going forward to anchor is less comfortable. I was looking forward to removing them :)

My experience with BR is that working at the mast is no problem. For offshore work, one can safely work there if a jackline has been fitted (two, actually), which one can clip on to. Installing a roller headsail (with a fairly high clew) will free you from venturing forward to the extreme pointy end of the boat  -  a scary place to be when offshore.

I am not sure if it was stock (this is hull 3 so I am sure some things were still being worked out) but we already have a roller on the headsail. The three lines go back to the cockpit with port and stbd winches to match. The mainsail halyard and reefing lines (three of them) also go to the cockpit with a winch for the halyard. However, I think it still requires leaving the cockpit for some operations, I don't think there is a downhaul and there is a cover etc.

Forget about the spinnaker until your boys insist on trying it, and try to bring aboard a pro to teach you handling it (and even to safely poling out the foresail).

I have already brought the spinnaker home (I should bring the pole home too), the one boy who might be interested has stated his intention to work all summer and the other is not technically inclined.

The mainsail could also be given a downhaul, or at least a set of lazyjacks. Personally, I prefer to have the mainsail’s halyard at the mast. This is the right place to be when working the slab reefs anyway, so you don’t have to run back and forth (if you are alone).

Lazyjacks we have, I will try hauling the mainsail from both places to see which works best, there is a winch mounted on the mast too if it is needed.

In all, I am very happy with our "new" sailboat. I do need to take the heater apart and fix the fan, though it throws out a good amount of heat without and heating season is pretty much done anyway. The sails are "end of life", the previous owner suggests buying more used sails if/when they rip too much... In my mind it just means I have an excuse for changing the rig. While I am sure the standing rigging still has lots of life for coastal, mostly fair weather sailing, I wouldn't want to guess how old they actually are. More than 7 years without a doubt.

For my wife, this is her cabin by the sea. She is used to tight spaces as the youngest of 13 children but this is much bigger than last years "cabin". I do not think we would really gain much space even in a 36ft craft and mooring, aside from costing more, may not be available. This one came with mooring I could take over for about half the going rate.

So for now, plan C is Plan A but Plan B (or D) is in the works.

Thank you for all the info and help.

Len

Arne wrote:Any fore-and-aft rig will have the least weather helm when fully close-hauled. As one bears away, the weather helm will generally increase, in particular with a broad low-balance JR sloop rig or gaff cat rig. However, before you bail out, I would say that your boat will most probably cope well with its generous rudder sitting well aft (very similar to the Johanna I used to have).

Actually, after reading this a few times (see below), it makes perfect sense. As the sheets (fore and main) are loosened the sail area moves forward.

After converting to JR, you will find the boat to be almost equally fast as the Bermuda-rigged version, when close-hauled, and from a beam reach, the JR is generally superior unless you used to set the spinnaker on the BR. It is a good

I have been messing around in boats since I was young, my wife has not. She is not someone who wants to leave the cockpit at this point. While I expect that will change, a spinnaker will still be a stretch at least for as long as I intend to keep it Bermuda-rigged. Speed is nice but so long as we make 5kts or so (which doesn't seem hard with the prevailing winds around here)

idea to get a few trips under the Bermuda rig first, but there is no reason for delaying searching for stuff to make the JR from. To learn the ropes on the BR, you could start with just setting the staysail/genoa  (with the wind on the beam) and play around with that. Then, on an almost calm day, you can set the mainsail only, with the wind about 45° from the bow. When you are familiar with handling the main, then you can set the jib, which you already know. Just remember to keep sheets and halyards out of the water while the propeller is spinning...

Good! Your plan and mine are the same.

For some reason, which has escaped me, I had already had a go with a JR for a Cal 29, back in January, but the drawing never left the CAD program. Today I

Possibly due to some comment I made. I did not mention what boat I had but you responded at that time with the model so you must have looked it up.

made use of your saying that you found the CE to sit at the Bermuda mast, so I had another go. This time I gave up keeping the mast away from the forepeak berth, so I just plonked it through the aft end of the foredeck.

I may have to change the balance (and yard angle) to move the mast back. I think my wife would prefer to sleep beside me without a pole in the way and keep the present rig. It is obvious that moving the mast to the front of the V-berth would require a mizzen mast which I would prefer to avoid. The requirements we started off with were: sleep four adults (we have two adult boys), be able to sit at a table for morning coffee without having to kick someone out of bed, don't break the bank. However, your drawing is a great start. I have saved it and will compare it to the other drawings in your sketches as well as the drawings you have done up for other boats.

With the chosen mast balance of about 19% and with the 65° yard, the resulting halyard angle is about 13°. This allows you to shift the sail a bit forward or aft to optimise helm balance (..I don’t expect you to need to correct this while sailing...).
Have a look.

And the mast height seems to be about the maximum for a hybrid mast, which is what I have been hoping to use. I am hoping I can get an extrusion longer than 6M but may not be able to. My nearest metal mart is about an hour away but at least I don't need a ferry. I have a trailer long enough for 7-8 meters flat.