Hull Insulation

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  • 12 Jun 2013 17:57
    Reply # 1315629 on 1313633
    10 June Mark Thomasson

    Robert, Gecko looks lovely, quite temped myself.  Only problem, one too few hulls, and one too many lumps of iron!

    I sympathise, but a proa with equivalent payload might, depending on design philosophy, measure from 12m x 8m to 15m x 12m.  That large footprint would be extremely expensive here in Trondheim where harbour space is scarce.  Also, when it comes to being environmentally friendly, the boat that already exists rather than needing new resources has a huge head start.  That does matter to me.  But I am wondering whether a proa would make a suitable tender.
  • 12 Jun 2013 17:52
    Reply # 1315624 on 1313445
    I just paid for Gecko, so I definitely will need to insulate her some time this year.  I had an idea.  "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction" mentions building decks using a plywood/honeycomb/plywood sandwich.  For Rogue Wave, the honeycomb was 75mm thick.  That should give a fair bit of lightweight insulation, but I don't know how impact resistant this stuff is.  I suppose that would depend a lot on the strength of the inner skin, possibly negating any weight saving.

    I know someone who used 22mm of a soft foam used to insulate houses.  It had the feel and consistency of a camping mat, but I am sure it was not designed with impact and abrasion in mind, seeing that it would normally be inside walls.

    I want to avoid adding a lot of weight above the waterline, and I need good insulation.  I've gotten several good suggestions already, just wondering whether there is anything still better.  If my insulation adds buoyancy, so much the better.  I am not used to sinkable boats.
  • 10 Jun 2013 16:20
    Reply # 1313633 on 1313445
    Deleted user
    [Webmaster edit] Mark's post above was in response to several in the Gecko thread in the Buy, Sell, Swap forum, now deleted from there and  copied here:

    7 June Robert Biegler


    I would like some advice from someone more knowledgeable: living in Trondheim, I would have to add quite a bit of insulation to Gecko.  Two years ago I considered buying Berlewen,

    the junk-rigged Grey Seal.  However, when I asked the designer about adding insulation, he advised against it, expecting moisture to creep in between foam and wood, leading to rot. 

    Can anybody comment?  Is it possible to fix foam to plywood in such a way that moisture doesn't get in between?

    7 June David Tyler

    In Tystie, the inside of the hull (topsides and deck only) is well coated with epoxy, and then there is 50mm of polystyrene foam, in loose slabs, behind a fixed  4mm plywood inner

    lining.  I can't inspect to see if there's any water ingress, but I think that the method effectively prevents condensation. Deliberately, there  is no insulation below the waterline, where

    water might be expected to lie. Here I am in Alaska, and Tystie is very easily heated! I think that the plywood/structural foam/plywood sandwich method of construction is very effective,

    and I would not hesitate to epoxy-glue structural foam  (Divinicell, corecell, rigid PVC, Airex, whatever) to the inside of Gecko.

    7 June Rodolf Van der Brug

    Hi Robert,
    Congratulaiotns on your new boat. I agree with David, gluing foam to the skin would be ok. You would have to add lining. I read about a couple in Wharram cat who use cork glued to

    the skin for insulation. Foam would be more effctive but cork could be simpler to finish. Regards,

    8 June Paul Thompson

    No need to add lining if gluing the foam in. Just paint over it with cheap house lactic/acrylic paint. You use a lot of it and you will want to do three or four coats but it dries to a hard skin

    that is reasonably resistant to damage. La Chica is sprayed with 50mm of polyurethane foam that is treated in the above manner. The finish is standing up well and it's a lot cheaper as

    well as much  quicker than lining with ply or whatever.

    8 June Annie Hill

    We insulated Badger with 12mm cork glued to epoxy-coated ply and covered with thin wood veneer. It worked very well and condensation was rarely a problem. The worst conditions to

    contend with was a period of heavy rain, followed by clear, cold calm weather. A wood burner will dry the boat out very  effectively.

    8 June Robert Biegler

    Rudolf van der Brug wrote: 'Congratulations on your new boat'.

    That's a bit premature, Robert.  I haven't yet made the final decision, but what I read here regarding insulation is encouraging.

    10 June Mark Thomasson

    Robert, Gecko looks lovely, quite temped myself.  Only problem, one too few hulls, and one too many lumps of iron!
    Last modified: 10 Jun 2013 16:23 | Deleted user
  • 10 Jun 2013 13:45
    Message # 1313445

    Being based in Scotland and considering a boat in the near future, possibly for some long term cruising, the subject of insulation is one that is of much interest.  My last boat, a 30 year old Hirondelle always smelt a bit “foosty”.  Condensation had got behind the foam backed vinyl causing black mould.  A problem I am sure anyone with a boat of similar vintage will be well aware of.  A horrible job to get rid of which was one reason I did not feel like replacing with new.  I accepted that condensation would occur as would some mould, but this could be kept at bay with good ventilation, as well as cleaned and repainted.  For paint I used ‘bathroom paint’ a high vinyl content emulsion with a mould suppressant, it is amazingly durable.  This was all ok for a boat mainly used as a day-sailor.  For longer term use, insulation is essential. 

     

    Being and Architect I am well aware of the theory of avoiding condensation in buildings, though this is difficult to apply to boats.  The ideal is to have a vapour barrier (normally thick polythene sheet) on the inside, between the insulation and the lining material.  This prevents moisture from the air diffusing through the insulation, where it would cool down and condense.  Of course it is never perfect, full of screw holes etc, so the moisture does get through.  I a building this is dealt with by the outer layers of the construction being significantly more moisture permeable than the vapour barrier, and ventilating behind the outer cladding.  Now this is more or less impossible in a boat, as the prime concern is keeping the water out, therefore the hull is (hopefully!) very good vapour barrier.


    There is an alternative approach which is often used in flat roofs.  These have the same problem as a boat, in that the outer layer is a good vapour barrier.  The solution is to sandwich the insulation between a high specification vapour barrier inside and the outer covering.  These are all adhesive bonded, so no nail holes.  Whilst a small amount of moisture will still diffuse into the insulation, the amount can be calculated.  During the winter it builds up and during the summer it dries out. As long as this is not more than will saturate and damage the insulation it is ok.

    This approach is how you should consider boat insulation.  If the boat is structural foam cored fibreglass, you are there already.  Though a thicker than normal foam is desirable.  If insulating behind lining, assume the lining is somewhat permeable (it is most likely to be removable).  Fit polythene sheeting behind the lining and make sure all edges are well sealed, as are any screw holes.  You can buy special tapes for this (duct tape is useless as it falls off after a short while).  Any timber behind the polythene needs to be well sealed, the hull included, epoxy being best.  Using treated timber for fixing battens is a good idea. 


    A good insulation is Extruded Expanded Polystyrene (Styrofoam) as is it tough and easy to work.  There are higher grade insulation boards, though these are more delicate.  The thickness will depend on where you intend to be, the size of boat and how much heat you are happy to pay for. I would go for about 50mm, though to bend to curves it will need to be thinner using two layers.  A recent innovation is the multi-foil quilt, this gives the equivalent of about 200mm insulation in 30mm thickness.  Being reflective it would work well in keeping heat out.   

    Last modified: 13 Jun 2013 21:21 | Anonymous member
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