Are two masts too much on a Cape Dory 28

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  • 24 Jun 2022 11:33
    Reply # 12827523 on 12821869

    Tapered poles are 6063T6, which is fine, so long as you design with the lower strength in mind. I've successfully used two masts with this spec.

    Yes, a parallel tube should be 6061T6. It's the most generally available spec, though you might also find the similar 6008T6.

  • 23 Jun 2022 22:09
    Reply # 12827085 on 12821869

    David, what aluminum would you use for the hybrid mast. I looked for light posts but the alloy needed was no longer used.Which I think is 6061 with T6 hardening. Can something else be used. Im comfortable with solid timber mast, made from pieces glues together. PJR said the difference in weight between solid and hollow wood wasnt that significant for a cruising boat.  But aluminum or hybrid is fine if its better.

  • 23 Jun 2022 16:58
    Reply # 12826610 on 12822107
    Anonymous wrote:

    The extra weight, expense and complexity all count against small junk schooners.  However a Tom Thumb 23 carried a schooner rig as does Greya, a 28ft Venus.  There have been others, converted from cat ketch, but they have been able to use their existing alloy or carbon spars.  I'm sure there are more that I can't rememeber.  I assume you've looked at the boats in the directories to get some inspiration!

    I suspect a Cape Dory has plenty of ballast and being of fairly heavy displacement, they can probably take the weight of the masts. 

    Personally, if there seems no sensible way of rigging the boat with a single sail, I'd go for the schooner/ketch: the former certainly does have some advantages over a sloop.  A mast in they eyes of the boat tends to make her sheer around at anchor.  While you are doing your refit, I would suggest you make sure that your bow is set up so that you can easily deploy a second anchor.  Good luck and please keep us updated on your progress.  These are great boats and with a junk rig would make for a brilliant cruiser.

    Thanks Annie, good call on the second anchor.And yes, weight, complexity, and just time to build, a ketch is probably overkill. Your post reminded me I need to try some of those bean book dinners....Ive been so lazy on land, with a freezer and fridge. It really hard to get the bean recipes out when I can grill some chicken :) I did have refried beans in my burrito though, so baby steps.
  • 23 Jun 2022 16:16
    Reply # 12826562 on 12821869
    Anonymous member (Administrator)


    It seems to me that David’s and my view on what makes a sloop JR good, are nearing each other, at least on a few points.

    My last two rigs for James’ boat have a much higher AR and lower chord/wl. ratio than any of my former rigs. The chord/wl. is only 0.72, while on Ingeborg and Johanna these numbers are 0.80 and 0.84.  Downwind steering of James’ CD28 should therefore be quite easy, even without shifting the sail forward.

    On the sail with 65 yard angle, the halyard/mast angle will be 16°  -  right in the middle of David's ’window’, and for the same reasons as his.

    I regard the shifting of the tack of the sail forward as a possible plan B, but frankly, I doubt that it will be needed. Instead, putting in a reef will ease the helm without losing as much as 0.5kts.

    No rigs like foolish handling. Sometimes they kick back, and the bigger they are, the harder they kick. With any new rig or boat, one should have quite a few shake-down sails to sort out handling and learn to stay out of trouble. Then and only then is one ready for deep sea voyaging.

    One little warning to the beginners and wannabes in the JR business:
    I and David may sometimes express ‘firm’ opinions on what is the best version of the JR. Lean back and relax; don’t let us scare you away. Almost anything goes. David has crossed big oceans with both super-high-AR and super-low-AR rigs, with yards being almost flat or next to vertical. That man can make any sort of rig work.

    I have stayed in the more modest league, with sails well within the Hasler-McLeod tradition, and with 99% of my focus on coastal and inshore sailing.
    Both David’s and my rigs have proven to be capable enough, inshore and offshore, so it is more about details and what your eyes prefer.

    Good luck!

    Arne


    Last modified: 23 Jun 2022 19:28 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Jun 2022 13:49
    Reply # 12826320 on 12821869

    Arne,

    I agree that your FUP is a very useful line to have on your high-yard-angle rigs. I've had a fan-up at night with a high-angled yard, and it was a real problem.

    But,

    • A low angled yard is almost proof against fanning up and getting the wrong side of the lifts, provided that it has the lightweight extension that is necessary to stop it doing that during normal hoisting and lowering.
    • The boom fouling the pulpit or guardwires when shifted forwards for balance isn't a fan-up, which only applies to the yard. The running line that pulls the boom forwards acts as a sort of kicking strap when the sail is aft for windward work, but is straight up-and-down by the mast when running, and doesn't. So, the boom is free to blow upwards at the after end, and of course the forward end dips downwards. Bottom line: if there isn't much sail balance, the boom won't foul anything. If there is - it probably will.

    So, my formula for a trouble-free offshore/ocean-going rig remains:

    • High AR sail
    • Low-angle short yard with lightweight extension
    • Mast in a position that gives a halyard/mast angle around 10˚ - 20˚, so that the halyard is lightly pulling the sail forward against the LHP which opposes it (which  a vertical halyard doesn't, resulting in to-and-fro movement in a seaway, and possible chafe)
    • No fore-and-aft movement of the boom, again by having two lines pulling in opposing directions - a fixed batten parrel or tack parrel opposed by a line that acts as a combined kicking strap and downhaul, usually.
  • 23 Jun 2022 10:32
    Reply # 12826162 on 12826102
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David wrote:

    Arne, I suspect that your sail, when shifted forward, might snag the pulpit when the boom lifts during a bad gybe (how do I know?!). As you know, I'm now in favour of high AR, low yard angle sails that don't need shifting fore and aft. How about a 55˚ or 60˚ yard?

    David,
    I remember your story about that wild gybe plus fan-up with your fanned sail in Tystie. That can happen to any of the Hasler-McLeod sails as well. Even sails with lower yard angles are not bulletproof against such calamities, unless they have some sort of downhaul to keep them from fanning up (SJR).

    I have therefore been using my Fan-Up Preventer for a few years now on my last two boats. Operating it is easy and the FUP has become second nature in use.

    If you enlarge the resent photo of Ingeborg’s reefed sail, that white FUP line shows well. As can be seen, it is cleated on the port bulkhead and stored in a little bag there.

    Arne

    PS: A lower yard angle would result in a wider halyard angle unless the sail is shifted forward. In that case the mast would need to be shifted aft to retain the CE's position.


    Last modified: 23 Jun 2022 10:57 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Jun 2022 08:51
    Reply # 12826102 on 12825934
    James wrote:
    Arne wrote:

    James,

    This time I have fitted an almost identical sail, but with a 65° yard. This little change (and by keeping the same mast) gives more room for shifting the sail both forward and aft. It also lets one install running Tack Parrel (TP) and thus tilt the lower end well forward (5° in this case). I know that some has found this to be a useful measure to ease steering downwind, but I hope the two Davids; Tyler and Thatcher will share a bit of their personal experience with this method. Anyway, as shown on the diagram to the right, The CE of the tilted sail has moved ‘inside the rail’, so steering should be easy.

    Arne

     

     

    Yes I was thinking about using Cape Horn steering gear on the Transom. So Arne, what method did you use for mast location, did you go a percentage from the original. Im not sure the terminology, a large main with a smaller jib but both junk rigged, like a ketch but with the smaller sail forward. So I keep thinking about building a mast with the birdmouth method, and I think about all the chances for something to not bond correctly. Which makes me think about making a solid mast (out of a number of strips bonded together. This seems stronger to me, but then all that weight up high, on a fairly tender boat. I thought maybe the ketch or whatever it is would be better as the canter would be lower....but more weight overall. I love the look of two masts, but whatever would work best. I could also see a boxed style mast being pretty easy to build. That would be hollow. I just have it stuck in my head tall wooden mast needs to be the birdsmouth style which i dread trying to build..lol.

    A staved topmast for hybrid mast is not nearly so frightening a prospect as glueing up a whole timber mast. It can be done single handed, doesn't need a competent team.

    Arne, I suspect that your sail, when shifted forward, might snag the pulpit when the boom lifts during a bad gybe (how do I know?!). As you know, I'm now in favour of high AR, low yard angle sails that don't need shifting fore and aft. How about a 55˚ or 60˚ yard?

  • 23 Jun 2022 08:30
    Reply # 12826099 on 12825941
    James wrote:
    David wrote:

    I rigged the 28ft Ivory Gull as a schooner, but that was mainly because I had two spare masts looking for a job to do. She would have had better windward performance with a single sail, I think, but she cruised successfully around Ireland and Scotland, and is still rigged that way. 

    Schooner masts tend to be as tall as a single mast would be, as the AR is necessarily high to get enough area within a short LOA. It can be done, though.

    Ahhhhh, I just assumed split the sail area, lose some height. That makes sense though. What did you use for your masts, material I mean. Did you enjoy the ability to really play with the balance of the two sails, did you find it was worth the loss of performance. I love the look and the idea of redundancy, but the look may be why I keep trying to find reasons for two masts.

    This is now ancient history; but the foremast was one of the earliest hybrids, an aluminium tube with a timber topmast, and the mainmast was a hand made carbon fibre experiment. The hybrid is probably the easiest and most pragmatic way to get a mast these days.

    Having owned and cruised high and low AR sloops, a ketch and a schooner, I come down in favour of a high AR sloop for all-round manageability, until the boat gets too big for the crew to manage a single sail. That's somewhere around the 30 -34ft mark. For your boat, I'd be going with a high AR single sail, so long as the accommodation is not too badly affected by the mast position. That's one area where the schooner, or occasionally a ketch or yawl, often has the advantage - one mast goes forward of the forecabin, with another mast in the wider spaces in the saloon.

  • 23 Jun 2022 08:15
    Reply # 12826097 on 12821869

    WOW! OK Arne, I just found all your articles and book and so on, I will read all that and it seems it will answer all my questions about how you got the mast position etc, good stuff man!!!

  • 23 Jun 2022 03:13
    Reply # 12825941 on 12822260
    Anonymous wrote:

    I rigged the 28ft Ivory Gull as a schooner, but that was mainly because I had two spare masts looking for a job to do. She would have had better windward performance with a single sail, I think, but she cruised successfully around Ireland and Scotland, and is still rigged that way. 

    Schooner masts tend to be as tall as a single mast would be, as the AR is necessarily high to get enough area within a short LOA. It can be done, though.

    Ahhhhh, I just assumed split the sail area lose some height. That makes sense though. What did you use for your masts, material I mean. Did you enjoy the ability to really play with the balance of the two sails, did you find it was worth the loss of performance. I love the look and the idea of redundancy, but the look may be why I keep trying to find reasons for two masts.
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