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Sail plans

  • 08 Apr 2013 20:54
    Quote
    Reply # 1263436 on 1260079
    Anonymous member
    Another thing I should say - this kind of sail seems to benefit from some forward mast rake. Fantail has 6 degrees, which I would say is the top limit. Tystie has 2 degrees, and I'd like a little more. Footprints and Malliemac have 3 degrees.
  • 08 Apr 2013 15:44
    Quote
    Reply # 1263118 on 1260079
    Anonymous member
    Thank you for your great replies, I'v got it now and, with my random access memory, realised that on my old Falmouth work boat the problem I had most was the Yard getting between the topping lifts...easily fixed I am sure. I will take a close look at the info you have mentioned. If Paul and Mo get this way this year I am sure they will bend my ear on the finer details.
      Annie, It is such a long time since Paula and I had a meal with you on Badger in the Portimao river about '89. We anchored for the winter at Ferrogudo.  Much has happened to us all since! I can also remember visiting you while you were building in Fleetwood or was it lancaster. Happy days.
     Thanks again to all    Mark
  • 08 Apr 2013 00:34
    Quote
    Reply # 1262562 on 1262112
    Anonymous member
    Mark Millward wrote:Thanks again.  So do your fan sails stack progresively slightly further aft ? I'm not getting too hung up on this particular feature, I am just curious.
     I guess that what I have been trying to establish is that the reluctance of the H & M rig to tack positivly every time has been solved along with some improved windward ability. That and memories of a few fouled sheetlets. Your fan design looks to have cured all that so I will definetly be going back to Junk rig. I have spent years telling everyone that would listen to use it but lumbered myself with Bermudan.
      I have noticed a lot of contributors use an anonymous avatar i think its called is there a reason for that of which I am not aware ?
     One last thing I found your diagrams for calculating shape but have now lost it somehow could you send me a link?
     Regards  Mark
    You'll find that the stagger varies according to whether the panels are cambered, and if so which ones and how much. My sail, with 6% camber in the lower four panels, and 4.5% in the next panel, furls with little or no stagger. A flat sail will furl with a small amount of stagger. Annie made her sail with the top three panels flat, and if I get around to taking my sail off, I should reduce the camber in the upper panels, though it's good to have some camber in at least the lower three.

    I've just looked back at the articles that Vincent Reddish contributed to issues 22, 29 and 40 of the newsletter. He was saying way back how this kind of sail made tacking more certain on his heavy Vertue.

    You'll find some drawings in the Member's area/Your files/Drawings/Tystie's new rig 2012, including the "generic" drawing with instructions and dimensions.

    [The technical forum and the general forum display a photo of the member's boat, and all other fora display a photo of the member - so long as they have taken the trouble to upload one into their profile. If they don't, then the anonymous silhouette is displayed. Some members, being shy, upload a boat picture in both places, but we'd rather see a personal photo. It  gives a better idea of who we're talking to].
    Last modified: 08 Apr 2013 00:37 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Apr 2013 22:39
    Quote
    Reply # 1262483 on 1260079
    Anonymous member
    I have one of David's fanned rigs on Fantail and by and large am delighted with it.  My tidy little mind finds the fact that the battens don't land neatly on top of one another when reefing took a bit of getting used to.  As far as I can tell, it makes no difference at all to the performance of the sail, which still takes us very effectively to windward.

    I tend to foul Fantail's sheets when gybing, but this is entirely my fault.  I drilled holes for the sheetlets too far from the end of the battens, being very dubious of the aluminium tubing.  Usually I can just flick them back again; if I'm going to gybe again fairly soon, or harden up, which sorts the problem out, I ignore them and carry on.  They never snag tacking.

    I've had a couple of minor problems with the short yard.  On one occasion it got caught the wrong side of the after topping lift.  I noticed this very early on and easily sorted it and it's only happened on the one occasion.  Since making my wooden yard, I have to be a bit careful if I let the sail down with a run, because it comes down so quickly that the yard's momentum can sometimes leave it ending up abaft the mast lift.  The sail comes down so easily, that there's really no reason to crash furl it, so I don't as a rule, unless I'm when anchoring in a hurry.  In this case, I restore the yard to its proper place on my way back from the foredeck.

    For a number of reasons, I didn't sail my boat to any extent between the end of April last year, and the end of January this.  Life, as they say, got in the way.  It was with some trepidation that I took her out again, but in fact I found I enjoyed  her more than ever, because in the meantime I'd only remembered the things that had appeared to be problems and forgotten all that I'd achieved.  (Having built the rig myself, I keep expecting it to fall down!)  After a couple of sails, I found myself wondering what I'd been worrying about.  The rig is just so much fun and so simple to use!
    Last modified: 07 Apr 2013 23:39 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Apr 2013 11:14
    Quote
    Reply # 1262112 on 1260079
    Anonymous member
    Thanks again.  So do your fan sails stack progresively slightly further aft ? I'm not getting too hung up on this particular feature, I am just curious.
     I guess that what I have been trying to establish is that the reluctance of the H & M rig to tack positivly every time has been solved along with some improved windward ability. That and memories of a few fouled sheetlets. Your fan design looks to have cured all that so I will definetly be going back to Junk rig. I have spent years telling everyone that would listen to use it but lumbered myself with Bermudan.
      I have noticed a lot of contributors use an anonymous avatar i think its called is there a reason for that of which I am not aware ?
     One last thing I found your diagrams for calculating shape but have now lost it somehow could you send me a link?
     Regards  Mark
  • 05 Apr 2013 22:39
    Quote
    Reply # 1260998 on 1260425
    Anonymous member
    Mark Millward wrote:Thanks very much for your reply.  Did it turn out that the Reddish sail did not stack too well and that your slight (the devil is allways in the details) differences in sail shape cured this
    ?  Does your version also help to cure the one thing that worried me about the rig of the sheets getting the wrong side of the battens when tacking and gybing. Sorry if I am not so precice as I am working from memories of 1979. The relatively short yard of the Reddish sail looks as though it could get the wrong side of the topping lifts.
      My intention is to design a sail for a dinghy then my old Falmouth work boat that I recently rediscovered laid up then our present 34 footer using your/reddish plans but (sorry) cut flat
    .
    While I am writing this I notice that letters are being missed off the end of each line,is that me or the site ?
      Best regards   Mark
    I must admit that it's been a while since I analysed the Reddish sail shape, and I can't remember exactly how it stacks. However, I do think that a convex leech is asking for trouble with sheets snagging, and that is one reason for making the luff convex and the leech straighter. I get no trouble with snagging, and I don't think that Fantail and Footprints get trouble either.

    The shorter yard (the shortest that I think is practicable) does mean that you have to be a little more careful with topping lift and mast lift design, but the owners of the three sails made to my design that are in service have found solutions.

    I'm all in favour of making a dinghy rig first, to investigate the rig at minimal expense.

    When I post (using Chrome), I'm finding that the lines are truncated whilst I'm writing, but are OK once posted. Is this what you mean?
  • 05 Apr 2013 11:41
    Quote
    Reply # 1260425 on 1260079
    Anonymous member
    Thanks very much for your reply.  Did it turn out that the Reddish sail did not stack too well and that your slight (the devil is allways in the details) differences in sail shape cured this
    ?  Does your version also help to cure the one thing that worried me about the rig of the sheets getting the wrong side of the battens when tacking and gybing. Sorry if I am not so precice as I am working from memories of 1979. The relatively short yard of the Reddish sail looks as though it could get the wrong side of the topping lifts.
      My intention is to design a sail for a dinghy then my old Falmouth work boat that I recently rediscovered laid up then our present 34 footer using your/reddish plans but (sorry) cut flat
    .
    While I am writing this I notice that letters are being missed off the end of each line,is that me or the site ?
      Best regards   Mark
  • 04 Apr 2013 22:58
    Quote
    Reply # 1260140 on 1260079
    Anonymous member
    Hi Mark,

    Vincent Reddish made a study of authentic Chinese rigs, and established some proportions that he thought the Chinese had used in designing their rigs.

    I looked at the design of a fanned sail very much from a Western engineer's viewpoint, and used CAD, with many iterations, to design a sail that will stack neatly with the right amount of stagger, and at the same time provide as much as possible of the benefit of fanning. Higher aspect ratio fanned sails may give greater performance, but they do not stack well. My design is an attempt to achieve a fanned design that may readily be scaled up or down, with as many advantages as possible, and as few disadvantages as possible.

    Yet it is noticeable that though Vincent Reddish and I tackled the problem from opposite ends, we ended up with something that looks quite similar. My sail has more panels and battens, though it would be possible to dispense with the bottom panel, and then the sails would look even more similar.

    As far as performance is concerned, I doubt whether there is a great deal of difference.
  • 04 Apr 2013 21:47
    Quote
    Message # 1260079
    Anonymous member
    Would anyone mind explaining to me what the differences and similarities are between the Reddish and Tyler fan shapes in terms of handling and power ? If I have missed a similar discussion apologies, please point me in the right direction.
     Thanks.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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