Choosing of a junk rig for a daysailer

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  • 02 Nov 2014 14:29
    Reply # 3139030 on 1163942
    Deleted user

    Hi Jef,


    Just resurrecting your last post from a couple of years ago - i would be interested in your findings.

    Thanks 

    Ash

  • 29 Dec 2012 00:58
    Reply # 1168173 on 1165862
    Deleted user
    jef verhaar wrote:

    Thierry,3 years ago I designed and  build a  15ft proa type daysailer with a bm rig. a very fast boat. I changed the rig in a Split junkrig but made the mistake to use horizontal footshelves and performance was disappointing Slieve picked it up and adviced me how to change it in 45 dgr. shelves.The result was a very fast boat again but much easier to sail.

    In search of a little more comfort I designed and build a new 17ft proa type daysailer which now needs only the last coat of paint. Seen the result i desided to use again a Split yunkrig.First I thought to follow PauL's idea for a whishbone junk and we had a lot of discussion how to do it, but in the end I decided to do it a little different and am now building a Yardless Split Yunk  Aerorig Rig with straight battens and omega's round the mast.The boat has a carbon mast (15kg) with a length of 6m30 above partners.

    Seen the results with the former boat I hope to rig it in 15 minutes. If you can wait till May next year I hope to report about the performance.

    Jef.

     

     

     


    Jef, I have taken notice of the problem with the foot shelf induced camber.
    Do you have pictures or drawings that I could use? Do you also follow the Yahoo group? I posted there today.

    Cheers

    Thierry
  • 28 Dec 2012 09:01
    Reply # 1167774 on 1163942
    Deleted user
    Thank you for these postings, very much of assistance to my thinking.

    Bruce W
  • 23 Dec 2012 19:47
    Reply # 1165862 on 1163942
    Deleted user

    Thierry,3 years ago I designed and  build a  15ft proa type daysailer with a bm rig. a very fast boat. I changed the rig in a Split junkrig but made the mistake to use horizontal footshelves and performance was disappointing Slieve picked it up and adviced me how to change it in 45 dgr. shelves.The result was a very fast boat again but much easier to sail.

    In search of a little more comfort I designed and build a new 17ft proa type daysailer which now needs only the last coat of paint. Seen the result i desided to use again a Split yunkrig.First I thought to follow PauL's idea for a whishbone junk and we had a lot of discussion how to do it, but in the end I decided to do it a little different and am now building a Yardless Split Yunk  Aerorig Rig with straight battens and omega's round the mast.The boat has a carbon mast (15kg) with a length of 6m30 above partners.

    Seen the results with the former boat I hope to rig it in 15 minutes. If you can wait till May next year I hope to report about the performance.

    Jef.

     

     

     

  • 23 Dec 2012 06:11
    Reply # 1165610 on 1165520
    Thierry Msika wrote:Thanks a lot David,

    I think that was a fantastic answer for a newbie like me. You took the time to detail with honesty the relative weaknesses of your rig and point to the relative advantages of the split rig. Those points are the ones it would be good to see included in a digest about rig choices. I am sure other newbies are or will be in my situation and are wondering how to decide, what are the criteria, the different choices, etc.
    To sum up, a rig with a higher aspect ratio can create taller panels that are easier to camber. On the other hand the taller the rig the higher the centre of effort that needs to be counteracted.

    That may be an oversimplification. Any aspect ratio sail may have more, narrower panels, or fewer, wider panels.

    What you don't talk about is how the boat balances when the fanned rig is squared out, the centre of effort going far overboard. Can you swing the whole sail inboard to reduce the ardency when running?

    Yes, I do, when I want to run fast in a strong breeze. In light breezes I don't bother, but in strong breezes the easing of the helm pressure is marked.

    Oh I see "catchers", you mean the jiblets are loose when reefed and need to be restrained?

    Yes, but note that this is conjecture on my part, based on being at sea in bad weather with various kinds of junk rig, observing how they behave. I wish someone would take a split rig on a serious offshore passage, then we'd know for sure.

    And the fanned sail is best suited for strong winds. Isn't that already a quality shared by all forms of junk rigs?

    I wasn't talking only about performance, but about the way that many stiff battens, with narrower panels, distribute the loads better than fewer battens with wider panels; and about the way that the shorter luff lengths of the panels means that there is less loose cloth to flap about when reefed.

    I don't know, I also cruise on a 10 tons Wylo II. I consider the ability to move in very light airs to windward essential. I achieve that with light weight main and jib topsails raking up the faster breeze high up. I can think of many situations where I needed to move in a few knots of breeze, especially because I don't drag a propeller.
    To me converting to junk hopefully shouldn't equate to converting to motoring.

    It won't, if you put a very, very big powerful rig on (as Arne and Ketil do in Norway), or if you put on a slightly more sophisticated, and slightly more efficient, split-rig.

    Finally what do you all think of Paul's wishbone split aerojunk rig? This is completely untested in the first stage of design and I haven't seen many comments about it from the experienced junkies. The idea has been around for quite a while. Or does no one dare give a comment?

    Yes, I dare. This is a design concept only, that has got to the stage of a non-sailing model, and is now looking for someone to build at least a dinghy size rig. We won't know the value of the concept until someone does. I don't think that the extra work in building it will be matched by commensurate gains in performance, but I'm willing to be proved wrong. My guess is that there will be some practical difficulties to be worked through before a successful rig is achieved. I really don't like the thought of all those exposed external wishbones, with their parasitic drag and the wind noise they will generate. Much better, in my view, to put the wishbones inside the sail, as I did on the wingsail rig that I used up until last Spring. Then  you get the added advantage of  a sail cross section that is much closer to the rounded leading edge and gradually increasing radius of curvature on the lee side that characterises efficient airfoil sections. The sail is still cut flat, as in Paul's Aerojunk.


    Cheers

    Thierry

  • 23 Dec 2012 02:44
    Reply # 1165550 on 1163942
    Thierry, your writing tells me some things. You need if at all possible to go sailing on a junk rigged boat. I don't know where you are based but you should look into it. Most of our members would be only to glad to take you out for a sail.

    Secondly, I highly recommend that you build some models of the various types of junk rig. The models will answer a lot of your questions in three dimensions. Also since you already have a Wylo, you most likely also have a small dinghy. Make a junk sail for it. It would not cost much and you'd learn a great deal.

    As to Paul McKay's AeroJunk rig I personally have no interest as it's not a path I wish to follow. Also he has not demonstrated it full size, not even on a dinghy, so at the moment it is just a theoretical exercise. I'm sure that if he built a full size version of some sort people would be more interested.

    Lastly, coming back to your particular use case, as you are a self confessed newbie and have not yet acquired much experience as far as junk type rigs go  that would give you the background against which to solve any rig related problems (and they will arise) I'd stay away from the AeroJunk for the time being. Sorting out something like that without the background is just too hard and there is no guarantee that it will work as expected.

    Please do note, I have nothing against Paul McKay it's just that I do not think that given your situation, it is something that you would want to get involved with just right now.
    Last modified: 23 Dec 2012 04:19 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Dec 2012 01:12
    Reply # 1165520 on 1165354
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:
    Thierry Msika wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:Thierry,
    With the criteria that you lay down, and on that style and size of boat, I'd be going for a split junk. The mast will be near, or at, the bermudan mast postion, and I'd put it in a tabernacle for a trailable boat. 

    David, by advising me to choose the split sail over the fanned sail you are telling me that it will be a better rig for this type of boat but you don't tell me why the fanned sail won't be suitable. Sorry to be persistant. Cheers, Thierry
    Thierry,
    The fanned sail has a good balance of properties, I think. It can perform reasonably well on a wide range of boats, in a wide range of conditions. A good "all-rounder", for use on cruising boats, but probably not as good a performer to windward as rigs with well-cambered panels. Its strong point is that the battens are close together, making it well suited for strong winds. If it has some camber in its lower panels, it is also quite good in medium winds. But its weak point will always be when sailing to windward in light airs, because it needs twist to develop camber, and in light airs it does not twist enough to give as much drive as is needed. These conditions are where a panel that is deep, vertically, and well cambered, horizontally will be better. And that means deep, parallelogram panels, I think. Then you have to choose between the the non-split-rig, and the split-rig, and I think the split rig is showing itself to have aerodynamic and other advantages over the non-split-rig. You are looking for an inshore rig, with the best performance to windward in light conditions as your number one priority. I think the split rig answers this need. If you were looking for an inshore/offshore rig, to be used in a wide range of conditions, I would not be able to recommend a split rig. There is as yet little or no experience of using it offshore, and I would want to find a way to add some form of "catcher" for the jib panels before I could be comfortable with it offshore in a blow.
    Thanks a lot David,

    I think that was a fantastic answer for a newbie like me. You took the time to detail with honesty the relative weaknesses of your rig and point to the relative advantages of the split rig. Those points are the ones it would be good to see included in a digest about rig choices. I am sure other newbies are or will be in my situation and are wondering how to decide, what are the criteria, the different choices, etc.
    To sum up, a rig with a higher aspect ratio can create taller panels that are easier to camber. On the other hand the taller the rig the higher the centre of effort that needs to be counteracted.
    What you don't talk about is how the boat balances when the fanned rig is squared out, the centre of effort going far overboard. Can you swing the whole sail inboard to reduce the ardency when running?
    Oh I see "catchers", you mean the jiblets are loose when reefed and need to be restrained?
    And the fanned sail is best suited for strong winds. Isn't that already a quality shared by all forms of junk rigs?
    I don't know, I also cruise on a 10 tons Wylo II. I consider the ability to move in very light airs to windward essential. I achieve that with light weight main and jib topsails raking up the faster breeze high up. I can think of many situations where I needed to move in a few knots of breeze, especially because I don't drag a propeller.
    To me converting to junk hopefully shouldn't equate to converting to motoring.
    Finally what do you all think of Paul's wishbone split aerojunk rig? This is completely untested in the first stage of design and I haven't seen many comments about it from the experienced junkies. The idea has been around for quite a while. Or does no one dare give a comment?


    Cheers

    Thierry
    Last modified: 23 Dec 2012 01:15 | Deleted user
  • 22 Dec 2012 21:53
    Reply # 1165448 on 1164388
    Thierry Msika wrote:
    Paul Thompson wrote:Thierry, I agree with David and Slieve, the split-rig is likely your best choice.

    Paul, could you elaborate a bit?

    [Webmaster edit: Thierry, I got rid of some wierd dashes that were appearing in your posts. Brian.]

    Thierry, David has already responded as to why and he is spot on. The split rig gives an easily controlled rig with very good windward abilities in light airs. If you build it as per Slieve's instructions you'd have an excellent rig well suited to your application. You asked for windward performance in light airs, no other version of the junk rig that I know of can deliver that as well as the split rig can. The rig has not yet been tested offshore but that would not be an issue for you.
  • 22 Dec 2012 18:12
    Reply # 1165354 on 1165231
    Thierry Msika wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:Thierry,
    With the criteria that you lay down, and on that style and size of boat, I'd be going for a split junk. The mast will be near, or at, the bermudan mast postion, and I'd put it in a tabernacle for a trailable boat. 

    David, by advising me to choose the split sail over the fanned sail you are telling me that it will be a better rig for this type of boat but you don't tell me why the fanned sail won't be suitable. Sorry to be persistant. Cheers, Thierry
    Thierry,
    The fanned sail has a good balance of properties, I think. It can perform reasonably well on a wide range of boats, in a wide range of conditions. A good "all-rounder", for use on cruising boats, but probably not as good a performer to windward as rigs with well-cambered panels. Its strong point is that the battens are close together, making it well suited for strong winds. If it has some camber in its lower panels, it is also quite good in medium winds. But its weak point will always be when sailing to windward in light airs, because it needs twist to develop camber, and in light airs it does not twist enough to give as much drive as is needed. These conditions are where a panel that is deep, vertically, and well cambered, horizontally will be better. And that means deep, parallelogram panels, I think. Then you have to choose between the the non-split-rig, and the split-rig, and I think the split rig is showing itself to have aerodynamic and other advantages over the non-split-rig. You are looking for an inshore rig, with the best performance to windward in light conditions as your number one priority. I think the split rig answers this need. If you were looking for an inshore/offshore rig, to be used in a wide range of conditions, I would not be able to recommend a split rig. There is as yet little or no experience of using it offshore, and I would want to find a way to add some form of "catcher" for the jib panels before I could be comfortable with it offshore in a blow.
  • 22 Dec 2012 11:23
    Reply # 1165231 on 1164080
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:Thierry,
    With the criteria that you lay down, and on that style and size of boat, I'd be going for a split junk. The mast will be near, or at, the bermudan mast postion, and I'd put it in a tabernacle for a trailable boat. 

    David, by advising me to choose the split sail over the fanned sail you are telling me that it will be a better rig for this type of boat but you don't tell me why the fanned sail won't be suitable. Sorry to be persistant. Cheers, Thierry
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