Rudders and manual steering control

  • 02 Apr 2013 18:00
    Reply # 1257394 on 1012370
    Hello Roy,

    I posted a photo in Technical Illustrations just now. The rudder is about 600mm fore-and-aft (its chord.)

    Cheers,
    Kurt
  • 02 Apr 2013 11:52
    Reply # 1256996 on 1012370
    Deleted user
    Hi Kurt, thanks for your input.  Not sure if I have the nerve to cut the bottom off my rudder - maybe a more gentle investigation first, but certainly worth bearing in mind.  Do you have photos of your setup, please.  The rake on my rudder is around 8 degrees down-forward, so not as complex as yours or Gary's.
  • 01 Apr 2013 19:41
    Reply # 1256372 on 1012370
    Hi Gary,

    The tendency of a rudder with a down-forward raked axis, is to depress the stern in a hard turn. A horizontal end-plate with much area in it, will counter that to some extent, and of course add drag. 

    (Our case is the opposite, 18 degrees or so, raked down-aft. The bow gets pushed down a little. Our endplate is small.)

    Cheers,
    Kurt

  • 30 Mar 2013 08:55
    Reply # 1254919 on 1254807
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Gary King wrote:Hi Arne, I take it this end plate is only suitable for rudders with a vertical post? Ashiki's rudder post is about 30˚ off vertical so I'm wondering if when turned it would cause more drag than it's worth.


    Gary, you may well be right , 30deg. sounds much. I guess I would make a cardboard rudder model with an end plate and see what happens if the rudder is swung 10, 20 and 30deg to the side.

    Arne

    PS: I would sail the boat with the standard rudder for at least one season first. Then when fitting an endplate, it will be easier to assess the changes.

    Last modified: 30 Mar 2013 13:37 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 30 Mar 2013 01:25
    Reply # 1254807 on 1012370
    Deleted user
    Hi Arne, I take it this end plate is only suitable for rudders with a vertical post? Ashiki's rudder post is about 30˚ off vertical so I'm wondering if when turned it would cause more drag than it's worth.
  • 29 Mar 2013 19:30
    Reply # 1254696 on 1012370
    Hi Roy,

    I agree with Arne's comments about bomb-proof or sacrificial rudder bottoms. 

    I made a 2-stage expendable bottom for our rudder:

    The last 150mm or so of the rudder foil is glued to the main rudder with SikaFlex, and the joint faired with epoxy. The endplate that terminates the rudder is sealed ply, Sika'ed on as well. Theory is that the Sika bond wouldn't be strong enough to break the main rudder or stock.

    In your case, this approach might be of interest especially if you find you need to cut some length off first to ensure the core and structure are good. Then add a shaped section and an endplate that are less strongly attached.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
  • 29 Mar 2013 10:58
    Reply # 1254331 on 1012370
    Deleted user
    Thanks for your thoughts Arne, will carry on pondering for a while.  I like the idea of Concorde wings - by coincidence BAE have a facility just down the estuary from here, maybe they can help? ;-)
  • 28 Mar 2013 18:03
    Reply # 1253891 on 1012370
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Roy,

    I see only two tactics here:

    Either make the endplates integral with the shoe and strong enough to take the strain (about the size of those Freedom endplates) or...

    ..regard the endplates to be expendable. In that case I would just make them of, say 10mm plywood, well painted with epoxy. I would just glue them to the sides of the rudder, about 10cm above its lower end and with 5° or so dihedral. Being, as said, expendable I would be more generous with their area and shape them into something like a Concorde’s pair of wings.

    Arne

    PS: I certainly am no expert on this so take what I say here with a few grains of salt...

    Last modified: 21 Jul 2019 09:39 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Mar 2013 14:59
    Reply # 1253729 on 1012370
    Deleted user

    Hi Arne,

    I am thinking to add end plates to the bottom of my rudder, and wondered if you had any guidelines as to their design - materials, thickness, construction, dimensions of outstand and leading tapers, etc.  Part of my reasoning is that there has been some damage to the bottom of the rudder where it has made contact with something hard on the sea bed.  When the boat was in Plymouth for a year it dried out twice daily against a wall, and though the rudder is shallower than the stub keel and should in theory not contact the bottom, in practice the keel would sink into the mud, the depth depending on whether it found anything hard to stop it, and so the rudder would at times be in contact with the bed.  Being of GRP with a (balsa?) core the lower edges have been worn away locally, and  there is a danger of water entering the core.  I thought to get a "shoe" of stainless steel plate made to a) protect the GRP of the rudder, and b) take the form of an end plate to improve rudder action.

    Any comments from anyone appreciated.

    Last modified: 28 Mar 2013 15:02 | Deleted user
  • 30 Jul 2012 22:23
    Reply # 1026113 on 1012370
    mehitabel's recent experience fully agrees with what you've just said, Arne.

    I fine-tuned her new rudder design for area and balance after we sailed with a prototype temporary one, and I also fitted end-plates top and bottom.

    The end-plates are more modest in size than the one shown in your referenced photo. The top one is to hinder air going downward, and the bottom one to hinder spanwise losses off the end, or tip vortices or whatever. It steers extremely well, with surprising improvement at slow speeds, and always a light tiller.

    You're quite right, that all cues to reefing need attention.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
    Last modified: 30 Jul 2012 22:26 | Anonymous member
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