Ilvy racing

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  • 19 May 2025 13:04
    Reply # 13500723 on 13500394
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Anonymous wrote:

    Today we had pretty much exactly the same conditions in the Kiel fjord at the regatta on wednesday: NNE F4-5.

    I headed out for some training, trying to stay in the groove while sailing upwind. Turns out, Ilvy's tack angles/ angles to windward werr still not too good. What did I do wrong? How did I manage to get to almost 90° in Sweden last summer?

    Then I got distracted from shooting some videos of the tacking manoevre of a junk rig. I did a lot of tacks, but focussed on filming. After that session, routinely checked my GPS track: Wow! Now this is what I had expected while racing: almost 90° in every tack. Was it possible, that I sail better angles if I didn't focus too much on steering!?

    What an unexpected result...

    Cheers, Paul


    (Find the according screenshots attached)

    Bonjour

    There is a misleading thing with junk rig. When sailing windword, the sail is aparently more open than the Bermudien sails. If you are racing against a bermudien, you are tempted to pull the sail to hard. The result is that your speed drops and the keel is less effective. If you ave some waves it will be orse as when the wae pushes the boat leeward the kell doesn't resist sufficiently and stall for a short while. It creates a lot of drag.

    When sailing winward with any boat but particularly with junk sails, the most important parameter is the speed over water (but the speed over ground, provided by the GPS, gives a good information also). If the speed is too low, ease the sheet a little until the boat speed recover the good value for the keel to work properly.

    In general, if you have the fealing that your junk is not sailing properly winward, ease the sheet. If the sheet is a little too loose you will lost a few degrees and win in speed; noting realy important. Keep your boat running.

    Eric

    Last modified: 19 May 2025 20:26 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 19 May 2025 12:53
    Reply # 13500719 on 13500470
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hi Paul,

    No need to say that my twin keeled, heavily built kingfisher 20+ is not a race animal. Nevertheless, I find also that the groove on Shui Jen is quite narrow and I like to squeeze out of her as much as I can.  Junk sloops are cat rigged and I sail her as a laser…now, when I started learning sailing on my laser the instructor (a former laser racer ) explained me that the groove is a fluid concept. The wind has no steady direction but swings constantly like a pendulum. Its oscillation is not symmetrical and every regatta field on the upwind leg has a good and a bad tack: on the good one the wind swings  more frequently to windward. On this tack you can luff up more frequently than on the other tack and sail accordingly higher (closer to the mark). Moreover, the wind oscillates also in his strength and when it strengthens, the vector of the apparent wind moves astern meaning that you can luff up again. Anyway, after an acceleration as your speed increases, the same vector will move in the opposite direction meaning that you have to bare away again…of course to this should be added the motion of the waves (one should luff up while climbing up and bare away while sliding down the wave in order to keep the boat going). I think that this concepts can apply not only to lasers but to every cat rigged boat including a junk rigged sloop. Of course on cat rigged racing dinghies must be trimmed also weight, camber and twist…anyway, the groove to me looks like a lively moving snake :) Following it properly deserves a lot of attention and practice….

    cheers

    Mauro 


    Bonjour Mauro

    These notions apply to all type of riging, not only cat boats.

    Eric

  • 19 May 2025 08:03
    Reply # 13500701 on 13499881

    Hi Paul, 

    no need to be sorry, I like your definition! Thank you for the clarification. To me low alpha tolerance is a new concept that well explains the “narrow groove” which I feel while sailing my boat. 
    when the trim is right the boat “falls in the groove” and sails higher and faster…But as you pointed out the groove is narrow and I now understand why I need so much concentration to follow it and keep my heavy, fat bowed and flat bottomed twin keel boat going. I noticed that when sailing close hauled the two top panels stall while the lower ones have attached flow. Is it the same on your sail? As said in an another thread, probably adding camber to the top panels would improve the upwind performance and would be useful in a racing setting. Here the wider alpha tolerance provided by the yard could help to compensate the discrepancy between wind shear at the top and the null twist of the sailmake this sense?

    Anyway, reading the threads about shape, battens and racing made me understand better why my sail works in the way she works…

    Thank you for this ;)

    Mauro

    Last modified: 19 May 2025 08:28 | Anonymous member
  • 18 May 2025 16:32
    Reply # 13500528 on 13499881

    I'm very sorry, Mauro, for if your explanation is correct I used the word "groove" in a wrong way. 

    Nevertheless, I understand your point, and fully agree.

    What I meant with "groove" was basically the alpha-tolerance of the sail, to use technical terminology. In other words: how sensible is the sail to a change of angle of attack to the wind (of course the apparent one). The "groove" as I meant it is the width of alpha, at which the sail is drawing at maximum or almost maximum (there is no real border).

    For example, a wingsail is determined (due to its nose radius) to have a much, much wider "groove" - so a much higher alpha-tolerance - than a single-ply sail like i.e. sewn-in cambered rig, split rig, Aero-rig, etc...


    Cheers

    Paul

  • 18 May 2025 07:30
    Reply # 13500470 on 13499881

    Hi Paul,

    No need to say that my twin keeled, heavily built kingfisher 20+ is not a race animal. Nevertheless, I find also that the groove on Shui Jen is quite narrow and I like to squeeze out of her as much as I can.  Junk sloops are cat rigged and I sail her as a laser…now, when I started learning sailing on my laser the instructor (a former laser racer ) explained me that the groove is a fluid concept. The wind has no steady direction but swings constantly like a pendulum. Its oscillation is not symmetrical and every regatta field on the upwind leg has a good and a bad tack: on the good one the wind swings  more frequently to windward. On this tack you can luff up more frequently than on the other tack and sail accordingly higher (closer to the mark). Moreover, the wind oscillates also in his strength and when it strengthens, the vector of the apparent wind moves astern meaning that you can luff up again. Anyway, after an acceleration as your speed increases, the same vector will move in the opposite direction meaning that you have to bare away again…of course to this should be added the motion of the waves (one should luff up while climbing up and bare away while sliding down the wave in order to keep the boat going). I think that this concepts can apply not only to lasers but to every cat rigged boat including a junk rigged sloop. Of course on cat rigged racing dinghies must be trimmed also weight, camber and twist…anyway, the groove to me looks like a lively moving snake :) Following it properly deserves a lot of attention and practice….

    cheers

    Mauro 


    Last modified: 18 May 2025 08:50 | Anonymous member
  • 17 May 2025 20:33
    Reply # 13500394 on 13499881

    Arne, 

    Happy constitution day, and all the best to the norwegian people!

    Excellent points of yours! I also find the groove of optimum angle of the junk sail to the wind quite narrow: I'm mostly either pinching or sailing too low. I think it doesn't help to have webbing sewed in at the luff - I expect boltrope would widen that groove. Anyways, the sail is now as it is, but I'll take it as a learning for the next sails.

    You remember that tufting experiment on Ilvy last summer? Those telltales, spread all over the sail, definitely helped a lot - though I could only see the lee side telltales of the sun was on the right side. Sewing in some telltale windows would help here, but then we are talking about some fancy-schmancy regatta stuff :-D

    I fully agree about the importance to give enough time to accelerate after a tack!


    Today we had pretty much exactly the same conditions in the Kiel fjord at the regatta on wednesday: NNE F4-5.

    I headed out for some training, trying to stay in the groove while sailing upwind. Turns out, Ilvy's tack angles/ angles to windward werr still not too good. What did I do wrong? How did I manage to get to almost 90° in Sweden last summer?

    Then I got distracted from shooting some videos of the tacking manoevre of a junk rig. I did a lot of tacks, but focussed on filming. After that session, routinely checked my GPS track: Wow! Now this is what I had expected while racing: almost 90° in every tack. Was it possible, that I sail better angles if I didn't focus too much on steering!?

    What an unexpected result...

    Cheers, Paul


    (Find the according screenshots attached)

    2 files
  • 17 May 2025 13:46
    Reply # 13500320 on 13499881
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    It is only a little week since I had the first sail in my Ingeborg, this year. As always, we are a bit rusty, both in sail handling and general helmsmanship.

    A constant challenge is to get the pointing angle right when closehauled. The telltales may keep the airflow over the sail right, but I may still point too low or pinch too high. I once made an informal ccomparison race against a Folkboat. We stopped the race after each leg and then restarted.
    On the last leg, upwind I struggled. After that I did two things; easing the tension along the battens to increase camber a little.
    I also made a wind indicator with vanes (like on the Windexes). These vanes tell me when I am too low or high, and are especially useful when heading up after a long run  -  or after a long winter.

    Another error is easy to make when tacking, and that is bringing the tiller back to CL before the tacking has been completed. I wonder if this has to do with how we turn our cars. After a sharp 90° turn, we simply ease the steering wheel back to centre. I now make sure that the tiller is fully deflected (varies with boat type) until the sail has actually filled on the new tack. Then I pick up speed over a few boatlengths before, carefully easing the boat back onto the correct course, with a half eye on that wind indicator. Getting up the speed again after each tacking is everything in racing around the cans.

    Good luck,
    Arne


    (PS: No sailing today, it is our Constitution Day...)


    Last modified: 17 May 2025 23:42 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 May 2025 10:50
    Message # 13499881

    Hi,

    this summer I'm trying Ilvy for her racing abilities. Two days ago the first wednesday regatta of the season took off. Starting at 1800, it is a fun afterwork regatta, divided in three yardstick groups (The winner of each group has to buy a box of beer for the next regatta!). Ilvy, a Maxi 77, sails at yardstick 116 with her original bermudan rigg. I registered with that yardstick for the races, to be able to evaluate a possible yardstick modification by the end of the summer. Of course my hopes are high that Ilvy's yardstick can be reduced with the junk rig! :-)

    Let's see how my enthusiasm compares to reality... I am not an experienced regatta sailor, and sailed maybe 10 regattas in my life, some on Ilvy with her bm rigg. I have to admit that I needed to look up most of the applying regatta rules on tuesday night.

    The first regatta was raced at northeasterly F4, which means a lot of choppy waves in the Kiel fjord to sail against. Typically, the prevailing winds are westerly, sometimes easterly. Northerly is rare. I sailed single-handed this time, with the boat pretty empty - all the travel stuff from last summer was already cleared out in winter.

    I had a superior placement at the starting line, just by letting the sail feather in the wind and waiting to the signal. However, in lack of a good timekeeping - I only used my phone showing minutes, not seconds, to start signal - I missed accelerating in time, and was overtaken by my whole group right after the signal, which left me last.

    The first leg was upwind, and I saw those folkeboats (almost the same yardstick) slowly sailing away from me. I don't really know what I did wrong, but my GPS track clearly shows that my pointing angle wasn't good. I expect that against the choppy sea, Ilvy's round belly didn't stand a good chance, while those S-shaped longkeel folkeboats simply cut through the waves. Also, I oftenly pinch too high with the junk rig, only sailing by feeling - but when she uprights herself, it is of course too late... Maybe I need to put some luff telltales onto that yellow canvas! Pinching in choppy seas doesn't make one win a race, I guess.

    Also, I kept on the eastern side of the fjord as I hoped to catch some nozzle effect of the northerly wind, while most other boats used the whole width of the fjord. Looking back at it, my strategy probably wasn't the best - though tacking really wasn't an issue at all.

    However, once round the northerly buoy, Ilvy's time had finally come! Dead running, I shook out the one reef I had put in upwind, and she blasted through the water. I rounded the buoy together with one other competitor (not folkeboat), but downwind that boat was pretty soon left on the horizon. However, the folkeboat fleet was way too far ahead to catch up. Anyways, doing 6.5 kn downwind, with the tiller between my knees, I opened myself a beer (non-alcoholic) and enjoyed the ride anyways.


    Result of the day: I was second last through the finish line, but 12th out of 12 yachts according to calculated time. Not exactly what I hoped for, but with potential for improvements!


    To Do's for next time:

    • more weight on the windward edge -> friends are already invited!
    • less pinching -> telltales are already fabricated!
    • use of accurate clock for the start


    I had hoped that the rare northerly wind would be advantagous for the junk rig, as it set on leg to straight downwind. However, I hadn't considered the upwind leg being so choppy.

    Let's see how westerly winds would suit Ilvy in that regatta!


    Cheers,

    Paul


    4 files
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