Gary wrote:

David wrote:

Another way of assembling sail panels and pockets - like Arne's method, this can be done in a small room, but with a much better result.

Actually I like that. Not sure if I could fit them to my completed sail though it could be worth a try. The webbing loops work on my sail but it's not as tidy as pockets. Am I correct that the pockets have a built in back to them David?

No, I screw through eyelets into the batten at both ends.

Well said Jami.

Actually, I think it is great, and a real privilege to be able to follow some of these debates, by experienced and accomplished people - with diverse ideas - and willing to put their views in a frank manner, with no offence meant or taken. Hats off to David and Arne for an interesting exchange. I liked Arne's Spitfire/Hurricaine analogy and I enjoyed David's mock-grumpy retreat - if there were a prize for best forum contributions it would be difficult to choose between these two generous fellows. 

Two clever people chasing slightly different goals, and we get to benefit from the clash of ideas. Thanks guys for what I think is a good and honest standard of debate, with passion but not rancour. 

Addition: I posted the above before reading the "peace pipe" thread, and - after reading that - I can only say again - this forum is outstanding.

Anonymous wrote:

Have we started giving away free pairs of rose tinted spectacles with each JRA magazine, or something? Does no-one else cast a shrewd eye over things and assess where they are satisfactory, and how they can be made better? Or is it just that having been a designer for nearly fifty years, that is my default state? Anyway, you all know what I think about flat barrel-cut panels, and I'm clearly not getting many people to take in and understand the benefits of the short, low-angled yard and how it works, so I'll say no more, and continue to be the only one marching in step.

You mean this kind of thing? constantly, and when after several hours or days of thought, research, and migraines it turns out to be unworkable, I get grumpy and snap at good friends.

I enjoyed your thread at boatdesign.net "the design of soft wing sails", all 19 pages of it, although most of it was over my head, less so now then before I read it though :)

Bill

David you may well be right, your level of experience is light years ahead of mine. If I ever need to build a new sail I will no doubt look closer at your work. Though given my sewing ability I can’t guarantee the result will be better than I have now.:)

Anonymous wrote:

"Over the years I have bored you folks sick with telling (bragging?) about my boats and their rigs. I have often been met with phrases like ‘apples and oranges’, ‘horses for courses’, ‘fjord flyers’, ‘over-rigged’ and ‘wrinkles’. I have also been instructed that my ‘2-D barrel only’ way of constructing the sail is not as good as more advanced (= complicated) ways. During later years a new ‘truth’ has been developed: Lower yard angles and shorter yards are more efficient or just ‘better’ than full-length high-peaking yards."

Are you deliberately misunderstanding, Arne? Lower yard angles and shorter yards reduce stresses and make the sail easier to handle, and easier to set well. They have little to do with speed to windward (either positive or negative), which is only one element in the equation for cruising boats. They have everything to do with making the boat pleasanter and easier to sail.

You do indeed have the right to make badly constructed sails that look terrible, and to say that you don't care so long as they perform well. Others are concerned with pride in their craftsmanship, and the pleasure of looking at a well made sail.

What concerns me is that you are teaching first time sailmakers to make bad sails. When it would be better to say up front  "this is the way that I do it - it's not the best, there are better ways, but it's good enough for me". In the case of Pol's sail, it was sewn by an experienced machinist who had never made a sail, but was up for the challenge. Give her instructions on making a good sail, and she could make a good sail. Give her instructions on making a bad sail, and she would make a bad sail. It seems that instruction on how these high peaked sails put quite considerable loads on the peak and throat were lacking, anyway, as Pol has had to make two repairs in the first three weeks of use.

David, I think you forgot to take your Prosaic ... Arne's sail making methods have been used to make quite a number of very acceptable sails, including his own. I have also made a few sails using his methods and had very acceptable results. Arne's methods make it possible for relatively unskilled people to make an acceptable sail and that is a good thing. There may be a few bad ones, but they were not made by Arne... if you cannot get a respectable sail using Arne's methods, you are not likely to get better results using traditional sail making methods as they are an order of magnitude more difficult.

Lastly, yard angle is a function of balance, more balance, lower angle, less balance, higher angle. Something that I'm sure you know. There is nothing extreme about Arne's yard angles, all his sails are straight out of the Hassler copy book and are very conservative.