Split Junk, Cambered panel or hinged batten sail. Which to choose?

  • 21 Feb 2014 00:11
    Reply # 1502543 on 746824
    Paul,
    Sorry, blame a memory that is nearing  the end of its seventh decade.

    Edward,
    All well and good - but nobody yet has made a serious offshore passage with a split rig, have they?  Please correct me if I'm mistaken. The proof of the pudding for me will be at the very least a 500 mile qualifying passage for one of the short handed events. 
  • 20 Feb 2014 20:30
    Reply # 1502384 on 746824
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    May I be bold enough to claim that an ordinary, but generously cambered junksail, of ample sail area, is also quite effective? As these two write-ups show (1 and 2), boats fitted with properly made junksails are fully able to keep up with boats of similar size and with pointy rigs.

    In addition, I think the cambered panel junk sail, for instance the Johanna-style sail, with its several identical panels, is the easiest one to make.

     

    Cheers, Arne

     

    PS:

    However, I don’t claim that The Cambered Panel JR will out-perform the really modern racing versions of pointy rigs (..they are, BTW, not so pointy any more...).

    Last modified: 20 Feb 2014 20:42 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Feb 2014 19:54
    Reply # 1502359 on 746824
    Dear Edward, thank you for your generous comments but as we seem to be having a general 'punch-up' may I attack your comments! You wrote - 

    The split-junk, although still an ongoing experiment and by no means finalised, gives some immense advantages that should not be dismissed too lightly.
    1.  Best possible up-wind performance.
    2.  Ultra low stress on all parts.
    3.  True vertical reefing; no staggering required.
    4.  Beautiful balance down wind.  No need for extra ropes to swing the sail forward.
    5.  The gentlest of gybes ever experienced.
    6.  Elimination of fan-up 'Chinese' gybes
    7.  K.I.S.S.

    you highlighted 3 negatives:-
    1.  "Jibs flogging when empty of wind".  The very restricted flutter of the short jib leaches when deliberately over luffed is as nothing compared to the dangerous and destructive flogging of the 99.9%  of jibs/genoas out there on the oceans.
    2.  "the jibs hang down, when reefed".  No they don't, if you rig lazy-jacks or a sail catcher on the whole rig, just as you do on any other junk rig.
    3.  "type not appropriate to 2 masted rigs".  At least one successful conversion would indicate that the split junk concept is particularly appropriate to the fore-mast of a 2 masted rig.

    I agree with your 3 negatives but your 7 advantages apply in 'Spades' to my recent AeroJunk design!
     
    Shall we just agree that an original Standing Lug Rig, equipped with full-length battens to become a Junk, then split into a Jib and Main and given profiled sailcloth will have an upwind performance similar or equal to a Bermudan rig? That way we do not need to champion one design or another. Then it comes down to a simple - flat cloth sail v shaped cloth sail and single straight battens v doubled 'wishbone battens.

    Regards, Paul

  • 20 Feb 2014 11:21
    Reply # 1501999 on 1501756
    Deleted user
    Paul McKay wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:Hello Rodney,
    ...............................................................
    As to the modern sail types:
    1. The split junk is showing promise as a racing and coastal cruising rig. It is fast, there's no doubt of it - if it is made with exactly  the right geometry of jib/slot/mainsail. I'm not sure that Slieve, the originator of the variant, thinks he has the final answer to the shaping of the jibs. From the open sea sailing perspective, I would not like to use it until something has been found to prevent the jibs from flogging when empty of wind, a very un-junk-like characteristic. The jibs hang down and obscure the view forward when reefed or furled. The type is not appropriate for a two masted rig, in any case, so I think you can discount it as an option for re-rigging a Freedom. 

    ................... unfortunately, I cannot see a way to get all of these features, so good on a single sailed boat, into the rig on a two-masted boat. A fanned sail necessarily has to have a strong aft stagger to the battens as they are reefed and furled, and it is difficult to find room for the sails and the sheeting system, particularly on a short-ended boat such as the Freedoms. ................................
    Dear David, it's important to keep our history correct so as to your statement re: Split Junk rigs, Slieve, the originator of the variant, I would refer you to my article in Newsletter 24, 1992, page 31 on the experimental junk or XJ. However, Slieve is certainly responsible for its development and success. Regards, Paul McKay
    Dear Paul,  
    Thank you for that correction, and thank heavens for our now digitised magazines.  I was missing JRA NL24, and could quickly look it up and read your article.  What a lot of work and useful experiments you have done.  You are an example to us all.

    Dear David, 
    I know this has been said before, but feel the need to reiterate so newcomers to the thread don't necessarily accept your original comments, just quoted above, as definitive.

    Firstly the aesthetics!  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the designer naturally has a vested interest in thinking his design is more beautiful than another.  Personally I think form and functionality are linked inextricably, and the form that conforms with nature and delivers the function is what I am seeking.
    The split-junk, although still an ongoing experiment and by no means finalised, gives some immense advantages that should not be dismissed too lightly.
    1.  Best possible up-wind performance.
    2.  Ultra low stress on all parts.
    3.  True vertical reefing; no staggering required.
    4.  Beautiful balance down wind.  No need for extra ropes to swing the sail forward.
    5.  The gentlest of gybes ever experienced.
    6.  Elimination of fan-up 'Chinese' gybes
    7.  K.I.S.S.

    you highlighted 3 negatives:-
    1.  "Jibs flogging when empty of wind".  The very restricted flutter of the short jib leaches when deliberately over luffed is as nothing compared to the dangerous and destructive flogging of the 99.9%  of jibs/genoas out there on the oceans.
    2.  "the jibs hang down, when reefed".  No they don't, if you rig lazy-jacks or a sail catcher on the whole rig, just as you do on any other junk rig.
    3.  "type not appropriate to 2 masted rigs".  At least one successful conversion would indicate that the split junk concept is particularly appropriate to the fore-mast of a 2 masted rig.

  • 19 Feb 2014 23:00
    Reply # 1501756 on 746943
    David Tyler wrote:Hello Rodney,
    Let's see what we can do to aid you in your decision making.

    It has been quite commonly found that a flat sailed junk rig is slow in stays. This is simply because there is so little drive when pointing high that the boat cannot be "powered" through the tack. This applies to Hasler sails, mostly. Where the sail is flat, but the planform is fanned, there is actually a useful amount of camber developed when the sail is allowed to twist a little. This is the "fiendishly cunning chinese" way of adding camber that Blondie Hasler did not take fully into account, choosing instead the more easily designed geometry of the parallelogram panels combined with a couple of triangular top panels.

    As to the modern sail types:
    1. The split junk is showing promise as a racing and coastal cruising rig. It is fast, there's no doubt of it - if it is made with exactly  the right geometry of jib/slot/mainsail. I'm not sure that Slieve, the originator of the variant, thinks he has the final answer to the shaping of the jibs. From the open sea sailing perspective, I would not like to use it until something has been found to prevent the jibs from flogging when empty of wind, a very un-junk-like characteristic. The jibs hang down and obscure the view forward when reefed or furled. The type is not appropriate for a two masted rig, in any case, so I think you can discount it as an option for re-rigging a Freedom. 

    2. Hinged battens have been used successfully by some and unsuccessfully by others. They depend on having very soundly engineered hinges - which are not available commercially, and so you would have to have an engineering background to take on the job of designing and making your own. The hinge has to be further aft than is desirable for getting the camber in the right place for maximum drive. Otherwise, it tends to hinge the wrong way, or to fail to articulate at all (a question of how much balance area there is forward of the mast compared to the position of the hinge aft of the mast). Hinges have the advantage of being used with a flat sail - which is easier and quicker to make.

    3. Yesterday, I sailed on Annie Hill's Fantail for the first time, with the sail I designed for her to make. It is fanned, and has 6% camber in the lower panels. It is now set up with the standard junk rig lines of halyard, yard parrel, luff parrel and 5 -part sheet. Annie tells me that I had a smile on my face whilst I was sailing. Fantail was fast and lively to windward, yet she retained the docility and ease of handling of the flat sail. Due, I think, to the convex curve I added to the luff, we were able to dispense with the Hong Kong parrels that are usually needed with a cambered panel sail, resulting in a much better setting sail on port tack. I'm convinced that this type of sail - cambered panels, fanned planform, convex luff, straight-ish leech and stiff battens - is the best "modern" choice for a single masted boat. 

    However, and unfortunately, I cannot see a way to get all of these features, so good on a single sailed boat, into the rig on a two-masted boat. A fanned sail necessarily has to have a strong aft stagger to the battens as they are reefed and furled, and it is difficult to find room for the sails and the sheeting system, particularly on a short-ended boat such as the Freedoms. For my best shot so far at schooner/ketch design, look at the photos of the suit of tan-coloured sails I made for Badger before I left England. They have a moderate amount of camber in the lower, parallelogram panels, which are as deep vertically as is consistent with sheeting and handling considerations; the yards are set at as steep an angle as practicable, with two unsheeted battens in the fanned head of the sails, so as to keep each panel small for "storm sail" use.
    Dear David, it's important to keep our history correct so as to your statement re: Split Junk rigs, Slieve, the originator of the variant, I would refer you to my article in Newsletter 24, 1992, page 31 on the experimental junk or XJ. However, Slieve is certainly responsible for its development and success. Regards, Paul McKay
  • 19 Feb 2014 13:41
    Reply # 1501296 on 1501165
    David Tyler wrote:Frankly, Ted, for the type of boat that you're building - a Brent Swain steel boat - I would be looking no further than the type of rig that Paul has put on La Chica: a schooner rig with more-or-less Van Loan planform sails and plenty of camber. Keep away from double sheets; don't try so hard to pile on so much area that you need them, giving yourself all the sheet tangle hassles that arise with them. SA/D of 18 is quite sufficient for this type of boat and the type of sailing it is meant to do. The Fantail sail simply can't be fitted to a schooner, it's too low aspect ratio, and a split junk sail for the foresail would be a poor mate with it, both aesthetically and functionally. 

    Once again, I recommend the straightforward, low stress, easily understood and easily operated LC - style rig. It will have all the power you need. It has a lot of balance area, so the CE will be well forward.


    Thanks David,  That's much what I started off with.

    Best regards,

    Ted

  • 19 Feb 2014 05:30
    Reply # 1501165 on 746824
    Frankly, Ted, for the type of boat that you're building - a Brent Swain steel boat - I would be looking no further than the type of rig that Paul has put on La Chica: a schooner rig with more-or-less Van Loan planform sails and plenty of camber. Keep away from double sheets; don't try so hard to pile on so much area that you need them, giving yourself all the sheet tangle hassles that arise with them. SA/D of 18 is quite sufficient for this type of boat and the type of sailing it is meant to do. The Fantail sail simply can't be fitted to a schooner, it's too low aspect ratio, and a split junk sail for the foresail would be a poor mate with it, both aesthetically and functionally. 

    Once again, I recommend the straightforward, low stress, easily understood and easily operated LC - style rig. It will have all the power you need. It has a lot of balance area, so the CE will be well forward.
  • 18 Feb 2014 22:37
    Reply # 1500869 on 1500121
    David Tyler wrote:I'll have to modify that statement, as we now have Flutterby successfully using a split sail on her foremast, and a normal sail on her mizzen. 

    Have you settled on the proportion of total area that is in the foresail? If it is large, as with Flutterby, I can see the point in splitting it.
     
    Thanks for your speedy reply David.
     
    The foresail is about 39% of the total of 87 m^2 which provides a sail area /displacement of 20.  Originally the SA/D was to be less, but I was taken by Arne's logic so plan to increase it.  In order to increase the sail area on the original mast design the sails have to be wider and closer together, so will have double sheeting with euroes.  The foremast leans forward about 7 degrees and the mainmast is vertical.  I have drawn up the sailplan using your fantail design on the main; it looked very well, but unfortunately it hung over the stern of the boat about 0.75m so I envisaged sheeting problems.  It put the centre of effort well back as well.  Assuming that the centre of effort is the centre of area of the sails, which it may not be.
     
    Best regards,
     
    Ted Stone
  • 18 Feb 2014 00:48
    Reply # 1500121 on 746824
    I'll have to modify that statement, as we now have Flutterby successfully using a split sail on her foremast, and a normal sail on her mizzen. 

    Certainly the fore sail, whether ketch or schooner, can be a split junk, but I can't see any aerodynamic benefit in making the after sail a split junk, as it is operating in the dirty wind of the foresail.  It's a bit like a double-headed bermudan or gaff schooner -  with so many sails coming one after the other, the aftermost  one can do virtually nothing useful, when going to windward. 

    Because there is so much balance area, with a split rig, I foresee major problems with the foresheet fouling the luff of the after sail, if the after sail is split. I found when I had a ketch rig, that the balance area of the mizzen was an annoyance, as I couldn't see the set of the mainsail, and for a future rig, I would cut this balance area down to the minimum.

    Have you settled on the proportion of total area that is in the foresail? If it is large, as with Flutterby, I can see the point in splitting it. The mast would be further back, which is good. I must say that I'm a ketch rig fan, and like the bigger, more powerful sail forward.
     If the foresail is small, as with a PJR type schooner, I just can't see that it will do you much good to split it, as the mainsail has to be the principle source of power.
  • 17 Feb 2014 23:16
    Reply # 1500081 on 746943
    David Tyler wrote:
    As to the modern sail types:
    1. The split junk is showing promise as a racing and coastal cruising rig. It is fast, there's no doubt of it - if it is made with exactly  the right geometry of jib/slot/mainsail. I'm not sure that Slieve, the originator of the variant, thinks he has the final answer to the shaping of the jibs. From the open sea sailing perspective, I would not like to use it until something has been found to prevent the jibs from flogging when empty of wind, a very un-junk-like characteristic. The jibs hang down and obscure the view forward when reefed or furled. The type is not appropriate for a two masted rig, in any case, so I think you can discount it as an option for re-rigging a Freedom. 

    Hi David,
     
    We have been building a twin masted steel 36' boat for 12 years now, off and on, and are getting close to settling on the sails.  We envisage coastal sailing.  Junk sail designs have changed considerably over that time particularly with Arne's work and more recently with Slieve's.  Given the mast heights and positions that we have, the split rig on both masts will enable us to have a larger sail area (as per one of Arne's ideas) and a reasonably balanced centre of effort.
     
    Therefore I was a bit disappointed to read (I have only just read this thread) that it is not appropriate for a two masted rig.  Why do you advise that?  It would be useful to know and perhaps there is something that can be done to solve the problem?
     
    Thanks and best regards,
     
    Ted Stone
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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