PANGO'S first sail (video)

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  • 28 Jun 2019 12:43
    Reply # 7694979 on 7296839

    Returning to Pango's first sail.


    A short while later Zane took Pango out for his first single-handed sail, an overnight trip to Motuihe Island, in company with Marcus in Feebie.

    This evening I saw a short video of the trip, Pango reefed down to keep station with Freebie.......sailing effortlessly under shortened rig....note the dead straight wake too....

    Nice video clip, I thought.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkb1T9UHl8o

  • 28 Apr 2019 20:43
    Reply # 7307929 on 7306615
    Anonymous wrote:

    Embarrassed of cambered panels, here we go again...

    David Thatcher wrote: «With the sail up in no wind conditions I was always slightly embarrassed by the wrinkly bag of 'Footprints' sail, but...» The same has been expressed by other JRA-members, among them, Shirley Carter on Speedwell.

    Back in the beginning of this century, the photo below to the left (from 2000), was shown to the members of the Yahoo JR group, and there was a lot of cheering and hoorays. Then, a few days later, the photo, below, r. was uploaded to the same site. This photo was taken a few minutes after the first one and shows Samson when he runs into a wind shadow, and the panels are deflated. It clearly was a shocking sight. Words like “terrible” and “bloody awful” was sometimes used. It seems that that many were put off from cambered panels by this photo, and rather turned to hinged battens.

    I remember that I then thought to myself: “Have they ever thought of how Cutty Sark’s sails may have looked like when becalmed?”  Of course, no marine painter would paint Cutty Sark when becalmed: They would paint her as if sailing on a broad reach, with all sails set - and with flags and burgees mostly pointing straight aft... Now, I haven’t seen any photo of a becalmed Cutty Sark, but I have seen old photos of square-riggers drying their sail in harbour, and the sails of course looked like laundry on a string.

    Sooo... please stop fretting over such details, and focus on making your sails work when there is a wind...

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: In the beginning of June, it will be 25 years since I hoisted my blue cambered-panel sail on Malena for the first time (see NL 30). No big milestone for the world, but a fine little jubilee for me.

     

    A minor note to Arne's comments. Based on my few years of trial and error experience with cambered junk sails: adjusting this, modifying that, adding parrels, removing parrels, etc. The becalmed foresail looks perfect to me. What you see is what I strive for. Because I know that when I've gotton semicircle creases with no wind that means stress are equalized fore and aft so that when the panel does inflate there won't be any heavy diagonal creases.
  • 27 Apr 2019 17:18
    Reply # 7306615 on 7296839
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Embarrassed of cambered panels, here we go again...

    David Thatcher wrote: «With the sail up in no wind conditions I was always slightly embarrassed by the wrinkly bag of 'Footprints' sail, but...» The same has been expressed by other JRA-members, among them, Shirley Carter on Speedwell.

    Back in the beginning of this century, the photo below to the left (from 2000), was shown to the members of the Yahoo JR group, and there was a lot of cheering and hoorays. Then, a few days later, the photo, below, r. was uploaded to the same site. This photo was taken a few minutes after the first one and shows Samson when he runs into a wind shadow, and the panels are deflated. It clearly was a shocking sight. Words like “terrible” and “bloody awful” was sometimes used. It seems that that many were put off from cambered panels by this photo, and rather turned to hinged battens.

    I remember that I then thought to myself: “Have they ever thought of how Cutty Sark’s sails may have looked like when becalmed?”  Of course, no marine painter would paint Cutty Sark when becalmed: They would paint her as if sailing on a broad reach, with all sails set - and with flags and burgees mostly pointing straight aft... Now, I haven’t seen any photo of a becalmed Cutty Sark, but I have seen old photos of square-riggers drying their sail in harbour, and the sails of course looked like laundry on a string.

    Sooo... please stop fretting over such details, and focus on making your sails work when there is a wind...

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: In the beginning of June, it will be 25 years since I hoisted my blue cambered-panel sail on Malena for the first time (see NL 30). No big milestone for the world, but a fine little jubilee for me.

     

    Last modified: 28 Apr 2019 14:46 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 27 Apr 2019 06:24
    Reply # 7306238 on 7300414
    Graeme wrote:

    But down wind? Oh man! - those big panels filled and pulled like a spinnaker.

    The sail is robust and not lightly constructed. In the flat calm when we started out, the horizontal shelf panels sagged and the sail looked terrible.  But when a little bit of wind arrived, and the sail inflated, it started to look very good, with full camber from batten to batten. 


    So, comments on the saggy sail with little wind. This is what happens with these camber panel sails. With the sail up in no wind conditions I was always slightly embarrassed by the wrinkly bag of 'Footprints' sail, but it took only a tiny amount of wind for the sail to inflate and the beautiful camber shape to develop. 

    And that off wind performance with the sail pulling like a spinnaker, this is I think an advantage of a lower aspect ratio junk sail. Off the wind and downwind 'Footprints' developed an enormous amount of power and instant acceleration. I was able to take advantage of this power by canting the very large sail across the mast.

    I am sure Zane will learn how to sail his new vessel to maximum advantage, enjoying both the simplicity of the junk rig, and the surprising amount of performance available with the rig,    

  • 27 Apr 2019 04:59
    Reply # 7306183 on 7304856
    Anonymous wrote: I must say, that I might have been a little more conservative with the amount of camber if it were my sail.  If my ambitions were to go sailing in subantarctic waters, I would be anticipating an excess of wind if anything.  If the weather were sufficiently calm for me to be sailing to windward with full sail, I'd probably be concentrating on airing the boat, cooking myself a good meal, having a hot wash and having a make-do and mend, rather than worrying about getting that extra 0.25 knot to windward.
    Neither the boat or this sail is going into subantartic waters. This sail is for coastal sailing... something that Zane will be doing for at least three years if not more before he goes of anywhere. We still have to make a seaman of him and help him acquire the skills he will need to sail the boat and keep himself safe.
  • 26 Apr 2019 15:15
    Reply # 7305219 on 7296839
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    When I see Paul’s photo of Pango’s sail, dated 23. April, I wonder if a combination of the shelf foot method and the barrel method would make sense:

    The shelf foot method looks good in the horizontal panels. However, on the two top panels, the wind is blowing more across the yard and upper battens than along them. I therefore wonder if the top panels shaped with rounded (barrel) edges would give a nicer airflow ( over a more even curve) than the shelf foot method will do. I could, of course, be wrong.


    The photo below, taken this Monday, shows Ingeborg’s sail at work with one reef. The lower panels all have been measured to have 8% camber, while the top panels are much flatter, but with quite even curves (horizontally). With a SA/disp=21.5, her rig basically fills my requirements for coastal summer-cruising: Plenty of sail area for downwind-sailing in light winds, and moderate camber for close-hauled sailing.

    The wrinkles along the yard and two upper battens should be removed by re-tying the sail at the luff end. I haven’t touched these ties since I rigged the sail in 2016...

    Arne

    PS: the slightly distorted camber is caused by the lee topping lift cutting a bit into the sail. This only happens when the sail has been reefed.

    Last modified: 26 Apr 2019 15:45 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 26 Apr 2019 08:51
    Reply # 7304856 on 7301174
    Arne wrote:

    I notice that Pango’s sail is said to have 10% camber. Around Christmas, I was actually considering making a new, 10% sail for my Ingeborg. However, I decided against it. Apart from being too lazy, I concluded that with the present sail area of 35sqm (377 sq. ft) on a 2150kg boat, I needed no more power. It doesn’t take that much wind before we drop the first panel, if being close-hauled.
    Arne


    I must say, that I might have been a little more conservative with the amount of camber if it were my sail.  If my ambitions were to go sailing in subantarctic waters, I would be anticipating an excess of wind if anything.  If the weather were sufficiently calm for me to be sailing to windward with full sail, I'd probably be concentrating on airing the boat, cooking myself a good meal, having a hot wash and having a make-do and mend, rather than worrying about getting that extra 0.25 knot to windward.
  • 24 Apr 2019 21:08
    Reply # 7302214 on 7296839

    I think you are asking rather a lot, Graeme. 

    Annie, I have to chime back in now and explain: you misunderstood. It was meant to be a compliment referring to Pango’s beautiful hull shape and windward potential, nothing more and certainly nothing to do with Zane’s helming which was just fine. I did say the boat sailed well on all points and Paul’s sail was a great success. (And it was a first hoist and it is a low aspect ratio sail). It was a throwaway comment, just a thought that came in my mind in a moment when I myself was on the helm – and I am not much of a helmsman, preferring to use an autopilot whenever possible. Sorry for my poor choice of words and I agree with what you posted.

    Moving on…this business of entry angle… I started a new thread.


    Last modified: 25 Apr 2019 00:46 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Apr 2019 18:22
    Reply # 7301954 on 7301164
    Anonymous wrote:
    Graeme wrote:

    Comments from a bystander: The wind picked up to a GOOD 15 knots (I thought slightly more) and the sail performed very well. It did not feel quite as "witchy" to windward as I would have expected from this very nice hull form, but still seemed close-winded and very good (especially considering the sail was hoisted for the first time).

    I think you are asking rather a lot, Graeme.  Zane had never previously sailed any boat to windward, so it was unlikely that he'd get the best out of the boat on his first attempt.  In truth, a lot of experienced sailors have problems getting the best out of a junk-rigged boat to windward.  It was Badger who taught me: she would sail herself close-hauled for hours unattended, as long as the sea wasn't too rough, and by watching her I learned how to do it myself.  For me it's as much about the relative heeling, acceleration and bite of the helm as watching the sail.  I suspect that when Zane has become more relaxed with Pango, he will find she can be persuaded to sail herself close-hauled in flat water and come to understand what she can do and what she likes.


    Not quite true...I did sail my JOG to windward off Whangaparaoa a few times, before the Contessa came up for sale and I knew I had to have her.  But nothing extensive that's for sure Annie, and I do have a lot to learn about this boat as well the nuances of junk rig in general as I didn't own the JOG long enough really to come to terms with all the subtleties.

    But I will get there with this boat as I plan to own her long term.  

  • 24 Apr 2019 14:26
    Reply # 7301528 on 7296839

    Hi,

    Reading back through the posts, the only mention I see of the number 8 is of the % camber designed in, which ended up as a measured 10%.

    In Slieve's McGalliard's public writings, he gives a good explanation of entry and exit angles in the section where he describes camber profiles. P56_66 will get you there. I still haven't learned how to do links, Sorry!

    Well worth reading all his stuff, as well as Arne's, if you haven't already.


    Lovely camber in your sail, by the way.

    Last modified: 24 Apr 2019 14:29 | Anonymous member
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