S2 6.7 Junk Rig Conversion

  • 07 Dec 2020 08:53
    Reply # 9409774 on 6872873

    Scott,

    It seems that as long-term seamen, David and I have done the risk assessment and come to the same conclusion. I think that for me, it goes something like this:

    What would cause a fire in the cockpit? An outboard and its fuel tank. What's to be done? Come out of the main hatch fast, toting a large extinguisher of appropriate type. Coming out of a forehatch would be too late, an explosion may have happened by then.

    What would cause a cabin fire that would trap me? A propane cooker? No answer, there's an explosion, not a fire, and the boat and I are a write-off. Vented lead/acid battery (gives off hydrogen)? Better to fit a sealed type. An alcohol cooker? A small fire can be extinguished quickly and easily with water, no need to evacuate via a forehatch. A solid fuel or diesel heater? Not applicable to this size and type of boat. 

    What else would trap me in the cabin? A major leak? Having a forehatch doesn't help. A main hatch that is self-securing from the outside? Not a good plan, avoid this in fitting out. Violent intruder? Possible but unlikely, and a forehatch wouldn't help.

    Anything I missed? Forehatches might be needed for sail handling on those boats unfortunate enough to be rigged with other than JR, but we can save ourselves the downsides of major leak possibility, plus the work and cost to install one.

  • 07 Dec 2020 03:57
    Reply # 9409451 on 9408489
    Deleted user
    Scott wrote:

    Hi David,

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think I want more than one way to get out of the boat just in case the main hatch is blocked by a fire in the cockpit or some other very unexpected event. Maybe this is nonsense. Either way I will definitely add some type of dorade ventilators when time and my budget allows.

    Scott.

    I thought about this on the 6 meter catamaran I am building. I had originally intended to put a full size hatch in the cabin top forward thinking second means of egress in the case of fire. But then I realised on a 6 meter boat I am only a brief second from the main hatch any way, no matter where I am in the interior of the boat. So in the end I have fitted only a small ventilation hatch which allows both light and air into the cabin.

    I have also provided for as much ventilation as I can making vents into the open coaming lockers for the aft section of each hull, and vents forward in each hull. The composting toilet will have a small 12 volt extractor fan running continuously which also helps in providing positive ventilation.

    Last modified: 07 Dec 2020 04:52 | Deleted user
  • 06 Dec 2020 16:44
    Reply # 9408489 on 6872873

    Hi David,

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think I want more than one way to get out of the boat just in case the main hatch is blocked by a fire in the cockpit or some other very unexpected event. Maybe this is nonsense. Either way I will definitely add some type of dorade ventilators when time and my budget allows.

    Scott.

  • 05 Dec 2020 07:21
    Reply # 9406247 on 6872873

    I'm not convinced that a small JR boat should have a full-sized forehatch.

    There is a need for all-weather ventilation, best provided by a cowl+dorade, eg Air Only.

    In hot dry weather, a minimal size (20cm square) ventilation hatch can be useful to get a through airflow.

    Neither of these options would unduly weaken the deck. 

  • 02 Dec 2020 21:53
    Reply # 9400553 on 6872873

    I am back inside working in the 50 Deg F storage area for the winter.

    I started with removing some stuff that I will not need for the Junk rig. The original rig for this boat had a mainsheet traveler right in the middle of the cockpit. I was sure I would eventually slip and get my leg broken walking around it while out on the water. Even when I did manage to jump over the traveler there were jam cleats and cam cleats on the backrest right where I would sit down. Ouch.

    All that is removed and the cockpit feels much more comfortable even with cans of epoxy and other things in the way.

    Now I am working on the deck layout. I am trying to decide if it would weaken the boat to put the hatch where the original mast was before. There is a big keel trunk for the lifting keel so I assume that some of the loads from the keel are transferred to the deck.

    Does any one care to guess if putting a hatch in the location in the photos will compromise the strength of the boat?



    2 files
    Last modified: 02 Dec 2020 21:55 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Dec 2020 21:45
    Reply # 9400537 on 9327905
    Arne:

    Scott,
    Maybe it's an idea to have a look at the dimensions of my Frøken Sørensen.  The dimensions of those boats are very similar.
    Check this: 

    https://bit.ly/3jBkOdY

    Arne

    Arne,

    I read through the document you linked. I think I have read through this, and everything you have made public, a few times. It is all gold. Thank you for everything you contribute to the JRA.

    At this point I am committed to at least trying to sail with the batten materials I have already purchased. I hope between the AL tube and the bendy fiberglass for short extensions I have what I need.

    Reading about the recent capsize of Frøken Sørensen makes me a little nervous about the comparison.

    Last modified: 02 Dec 2020 21:54 | Anonymous member
  • 27 Oct 2020 07:18
    Reply # 9327905 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,
    Maybe it's an idea to have a look at the dimensions of my Frøken Sørensen.  The dimensions of those boats are very similar.
    Check this: 

    https://bit.ly/3jBkOdY

    Arne



  • 27 Oct 2020 05:40
    Reply # 9327852 on 9326325
    Deleted user
    Scott wrote:

    I like this video. Watching the materials bend under load and how they fail was very educational for me. It seems that correct type of fiberglass or standard modulus carbon fiber tubes would be the best option. They are stiff but also flex and return to their original shape after extreme loads. Watching the aluminum tube buckle and fail was not very reassuring.


    I think the thing that makes aluminium tube fail is point loading. I had this with the yard on 'Footprints' where the alloy tube eventually failed at the mid point, or halyard attachment point. With battens there is, it seems to me at least, to be a more even load over the whole length of the batten, and yes they may flex a bit under strong wind conditions, but should retain their shape. It seems to me that various folk have had failure with T6 alloy, but those T5 battens on Footprints have now done thousands of miles and stood up very well. I know because I was out sailing on her just a couple of days ago, and that very large camber panel sail puts a lot of load on the battens. On the original sail I replaced very bendy plastic tube battens with battens constructed of Western Red Cedar which is not the ideal timber choice. I reinforced the timber with either one or two layers of uni-directional fiberglass which seemed to add the required strength and rigidity, as needed by the traditional HM flat junk sail.  

    Certainly carbon fiber battens would produce the ideal combination of light weight and rigidity, but you need very deep money pockets to purchase those

  • 26 Oct 2020 15:09
    Reply # 9326325 on 9324785
    Annie wrote:

    Yes, that is exactly what happened with my fibreglass battens.  Equally irritatingy, I said to the suppliers that I wanted an equivalent stiffness to 2 x 1 douglas fir, but they were nothing like as stiff, when the arrived.

    I don't recall the sail area of your new rig.  However, I was relieved to see you had gone for larger battens: I managed to bend a 38mm, T6 batten quite badly and another one slightly.  It rather put me off alloy battens, but most people have no problems with them.

    My sail is 22 sqm. If I did the math right then PJR recommends spruce battens with a 1.125" section. I have given up on using metric for everything. I am using mixed units in my head and for paper calculations.

    I just finished a weekend long sprint of ripping seams, cutting fabric and re-learning how to use my sewing machine. The new battens seem much better. There is some deflection but I think they have more stiffness than 1.125 inches of spruce.

    I like this video. Watching the materials bend under load and how they fail was very educational for me. It seems that correct type of fiberglass or standard modulus carbon fiber tubes would be the best option. They are stiff but also flex and return to their original shape after extreme loads. Watching the aluminum tube buckle and fail was not very reassuring.

    But in the end the only reasonable option for me was to go with what is available locally. I guess there are more people building commercial and industrial stuff out of 6061-T6 than unidirectional fiberglass where I live.

    2 files
    Last modified: 12 May 2021 18:49 | Anonymous member
  • 25 Oct 2020 18:34
    Reply # 9324785 on 6872873

    Yes, that is exactly what happened with my fibreglass battens.  Equally irritatingy, I said to the suppliers that I wanted an equivalent stiffness to 2 x 1 douglas fir, but they were nothing like as stiff, when the arrived.

    I don't recall the sail area of your new rig.  However, I was relieved to see you had gone for larger battens: I managed to bend a 38mm, T6 batten quite badly and another one slightly.  It rather put me off alloy battens, but most people have no problems with them.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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