David Tyler wrote:

I agree, David, absolutely. Lots of glossy varnished joinery is strictly for selling a boat at a Boat Show, and shouldn't be attempted on a boat intended for voyaging. Plain plywood, epoxy coated before it goes in; easily sanded epoxy filler to make good; high build epoxy primer that can be sanded flat; two coats of satin finish off white paint applied by 4in gloss roller: that's a voyaging finish. Add a minimal amount of varnished trim and make doors of  canvas with zippers or canvas fasteners, and you'll be voyaging a lot sooner, even if a pro is doing some of the work for you.

Moreover, paint-over-epoxy requires more fairing, sanding and number of overcoats than varnish-over-epoxy.  It has taken me a lot of self-discipline to paint out the lockers in order that it will be easy to find things in them and keep them clean: it would be a lot easier just to put on a couple of coats of varnish.

We have debated the various reasons for getting a boat finished faster.  However, for some people, the joy of living with a certain type of finish once the boat is sailing, outweighs the joy of getting sailing sooner and then wishing that more time had been spent on finishing the boat.

It's horses for courses.  There is no more 'the right finish' for a voyaging yacht than there is 'the right material' for a voyaging yacht. 

I should add a further comment about quality of both interior and exterior finish, that Annie is producing some very fine detail and craftsmanship, (craftwomanship??) on her Siblim. I expect though that she is getting a good degree of satisfaction and enjoyment from this work. But the difference is that she is working full time on the boat, not trying to fit into into a regular working life where up to 40 hours or more a week are devoted to 'the boss'. And she is not having to pay someone else to produce this high quality work. From what I saw of the Siblim project a couple of months ago it is going to be one fine boat.

A suggestion regarding time saving construction is the way I have done improvements to our yacht Footprints. I have installed a complete head compartment, and a number of storage lockers to the galley, and changes to the nav-station, and rebuilt the forward cabin. I had to match the varnished interior of the boat, and the trim used. To the casual observer it all fits in with the original high quality interior, but it is actually all 'quick and dirty' type boat building. All this was done while the boat was on the mooring. Everything was prefabricated and finished in the workshop. Any gluing on individual components was done with water resistant PVA glue, which is actually stronger than epoxy. Nothing is glued into the boat, it is all screwed in place with hidden screws. Where there was a need to seal against water, (such as the vanity top), components were bedded down with a good quality sealant. I do not recommend doing a lot of work while the boat is in the water because it does involve quite a lot of to and fro doing a trial fit of components before final finishing, but finishing complete units in the week shop before installation also is a type of time saving.

I agree, David, absolutely. Lots of glossy varnished joinery is strictly for selling a boat at a Boat Show, and shouldn't be attempted on a boat intended for voyaging. Plain plywood, epoxy coated before it goes in; easily sanded epoxy filler to make good; high build epoxy primer that can be sanded flat; two coats of satin finish off white paint applied by 4in gloss roller: that's a voyaging finish. Add a minimal amount of varnished trim and make doors of  canvas with zippers or canvas fasteners, and you'll be voyaging a lot sooner, even if a pro is doing some of the work for you.

David Tyler wrote:

I view this question in terms of the total timescale of the project. I've completed three boat building projects within two years, and that's been fine - I could maintain enough enthusiasm for the work. The one that took four years was different. When I was in the middle of it, I'd forgotten the beginning, and couldn't yet see the light at the end of the tunnel, and that's when it all got to be a bit too much of a grind. Yet I knew that I was the one best placed and skilled to do the work, so on I ground. I see others who have taken well over four years, and it seems that the project has become their lives, to the exclusion of all else. Also, over four years, there's likely to be a life-changing event or two, to move the goalposts - there was for me. It's just too long. So I would set this sort of timescale as the target, and do whatever it takes.

And Annie - I agree with you that most professional builders, by necessity, must take an "out of sight, out of high standard" approach to stay alive.  But "good enough" is relative, so any work I hire out would need to allow me to monitor it clearly.  As far as project ownership, I am past the point where I need to feel that I did all the work - in fact, I'm trying to learn how to ask for help when I need it.  That was never my strong point, and I'm viewing it as character growth that I'm even entertaining the idea.  

And I'm happy to report that I think I have. Tim Lackey got back to me and has availability right about the time I should be able to take advantage of it - November 2019. His rates are competitive, and he efficiently documents each step of the projects he takes on.  His website is a bit difficult to use because of the way the projects are stored by each day, but it's worth the time visiting if anyone is interested in how a quality guy goes about it.

The plan is to do what I can over the next 18 months, and send it up to him to do the tasks for which I either don't have the skills or patience.  This option now allows me to look more closely at what those tasks may be.   

I'm dreading fine woodwork and making things look pretty and livable. I'm all for glassing in bulkheads, removing and installing through hulls, steering systems, electrical, motors, plumbing, et cetera.  But a nice piece of teak or a mahogany frame around a hatch?  Shudder.  A good clean paint job or a sharp backsplash in the galley?  Totally worth hiring out. 

I'm putting together a huge list of the tasks ahead of me and attempting to make a project schedule that will work.  I'll do as much of the rough work as I can, the major systems installation that make sense, and ship it up to him to do the interior and paint topsides and deck.  Then it'll be back to me for rigging and the rest of the major systems.  With luck, I'll be in the water in spring of 2020.  Not all shook out, but good enough to coastal cruise.

So put the kettle on, Shemaya -  I'll be visiting in two years.

This one is definitely on topic.

I can well understand your dilemma, Scott. There is a lot more to building, or rebuilding a boat than trying to get a boat that suits you.

There's been heaps of good and practical advice from great and practical people.  However, I think at this stage of the game, you perhaps ought to sit down somewhere with a pen and paper and write out just what you are trying to achieve.

Comments have been made along the lines of 'don't worry about the bits that no-one is going to see'.  This is exactly how professionals build boats - or at least professionals who have a budget to meet.  But in many ways, this is exactly how amateurs - we who do it for the love of it - don't build.  One of the things that I hated about my fibreglass boat was all the bits that 'no-one sees'.  I certainly could feel them when my fingers were speared by sharp ends of glass as I tried to clean out the lockers.

I'm not building my boat to impress other people: I'm building her for me.  So when I go to get something out of the locker, I want it to be a locker that I can keep clean without hurting myself; to look 'nice' so that I won't wish I had gone to the trouble to finish it off properly at the time.  I want to know that I filleted all the corners that can't be seen, but are still important to the longevity of the construction.  Rough corners attract dirt, which attracts moisture and mould.  If nothing else, the boat will start to smell musty - at worst, unsealed edges and gaps where 'no-one will see' can start rot.  I'm the one who is going to sit in the cockpit or the saloon and what I'll see will be the boat I built.  I would like to look on her with pleasure.  The most avid sailor in the world spends more time at anchor than sailing; more time below than on deck.  I want my surroundings to be beautiful, at least to my eyes, and to give me constant pleasure.

Other people are building boats simply because they want to build a boat.  They want to create something and they want the satisfaction of seeing a project through from start to finish and to say: I did this. 

Maybe sailing performance is very important to them and they feel that by building carefully, fully concentrating on this aspect, they can achieve a better 'sailing machine' than they can buy for the same amount of money.

Yet other people are re/building boats because they couldn't find what they wanted in the market place.  In this case, the building is often much more the means to the end rather than a journey in itself. 

If you are part of this latter group, Scott, then you can live with other people's ideas that weren't actually what you envisaged; it's not that important to you to say "I did this"; your focus is to get sailing.  But it's important to get it clear in your head just what you are doing this for, and where your ultimate satisfaction will lie.

Other people's impatience shouldn't make you feel diminished.  Taking longer than you'd planned is part of life - a big project such as this, when you've never done something similar: it would be astonishing if your got your estimates correct. 

David was wondering if he'd made the right decisions 40 years ago.  One of my few pieces of wisdom is to realise that you hardly ever know if you made the right decision, there's no way of telling if another choice could have been better; but you do know when you've made the wrong one.