Choosing a boat for extended cruising

  • 19 Mar 2018 08:19
    Reply # 5985787 on 5880436

    Then there is guys like Webb Chiles.

    3/4 of the way round the world so far in a boat with a displ. to lwl of just 89.

    He recently accepted the CCA Blue Water medal award.

    https://youtu.be/chGIg-9W3is

    Probably sounds like name dropping, but met him a couple times.  Heck of a nice bloke.



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    Last modified: 19 Mar 2018 08:20 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Mar 2018 08:13
    Reply # 5985786 on 5880436

    It's worth mentioning Ted Brewer's "comfort ratio": Displacement in pounds/ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x B1.333). For Siblim, this works out as 23, which is pretty good for the size

  • 19 Mar 2018 07:54
    Reply # 5985782 on 5985736
    Annie Hill wrote:
     Today there is a report that two 'stricken yachties' have had to be rescued.  They were sailing a 40ft Beneteau in winds 'gusting 40 knots'.  Hardly survival conditions for a vessel of that size, but for all that, it appears that the boat couldn't claw off the shore and ended up on the rocks while (apparently) running for Whangarei harbour.
    That's a classic case of there being "not enough boat in the water, too much above water" (and probably also a rig that couldn't be quickly and effectively reefed for a blow). It would apply to the vast majority of today's production boats, which are designed for use at weekends, and for holidays or charters of a week or two, in good summer weather, because that's where the money is. 

    Displacement matters, both for safety and comfort. A displacement/length ratio of 300 is about right - moderation in all things, not too heavy, not too light.

  • 19 Mar 2018 07:27
    Reply # 5985769 on 5880436

    Well Terry Travers and Robin Chamberlain sailed an open bridgedeck cat to Antarctica 

    ( http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11017 )

    And back.

    I think I recall Terry telling me he lost a few toes to frostbite but otherwise they enjoyed the trip.

    AVS approx 45 degrees

    Pete Goss sailed a 26 foot cat across the Atlantic rather quickly:

    ( http://www.petegoss.com/pages/journey-to-date/carlsberg-translantic/75 )

    His later, much larger cata-meringue (Team Philips) fared less well.

    And then there are the French. Always the French :-) Christian Marty windsurfed the Atlantic only to be killed whilst flying a supersonic passenger aircraft. 

    ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pilot-was-one-of-few-to-have-windsurfed-across-the-atlantic-707690.html )

    Sorry, the RCD is so wrong on many levels. 

    I mean who would willingly allow a third party to dictate what constitutes a suitably safe vessel. THEY won't be on board when it all gets a bit nasty. 


  • 19 Mar 2018 06:54
    Reply # 5985762 on 5880436
    Anonymous

    I've been re-reading Larry & Lin Pardy's "Storm Tactics Handbook" - stimulated by this thread. I found it very interesting.

    One of their cardinal rules - in storm conditions, don't run for shelter to a lee shore.

    Chris

  • 19 Mar 2018 06:25
    Reply # 5985736 on 5985526
    Graham Cox wrote:I have been in two survival storms at sea (not counting cyclones up mangrove creeks), and agree with David Tyler that this indicates carelessness.  The first was in early April, 1974, when I ran into a cyclone in the northern Tasman Sea - it was too early to be out there.  The second was deep in the Southern Ocean in late autumn, 1980, too late to be down there.  My joking rule of thumb is that you are allowed one survival storm every 100,000 miles, or you are doing something wrong.

    PS:  Perhaps one could also say that the skipper is the most important criterion for deciding if a boat is capable of crossing oceans!

    I agree with your (and David's) view on survival storms.  To a certain extent it depends on where you have chosen to go cruising, but surely you should select your boat to fit your cruising ambitions (Graham's point about the skipper!).  To me, one of the scariest things about a lot of modern boats is what should simply be something of an ordeal for the skipper and crew (Graham is spot on that the discomfort is the hardest aspect of voyaging), becomes a survival storm.  I have met people whose boats surf in F8 and refuse to slow down.  Today there is a report that two 'stricken yachties' have had to be rescued.  They were sailing a 40ft Beneteau in winds 'gusting 40 knots'.  Hardly survival conditions for a vessel of that size, but for all that, it appears that the boat couldn't claw off the shore and ended up on the rocks while (apparently) running for Whangarei harbour.

    (The following should probably go on the drogue thread)  So, bearing in mind that there seem to be a number of vessels around that are supposedly suited to sail offshore and yet struggle in a gale of wind, I reckon that your drag device needs to be able to stand up to more than one use per 100,000 miles!



  • 19 Mar 2018 00:09
    Reply # 5985526 on 5984522
    David Thatcher wrote:

    Following on from Annie's previous comments I can think of two boats which would probably not now meet the bureaucratic requirements for an offshore cruiser but nevertheless  have achieved very significant trans ocean voyages. The first is the 21' Wharram Tiki 21, Cooking Fat, which completed a circumnavigation, although I understand not necessarily with the approval of the designer. Secondly is Rosie Swale who along with her husband and two young children sailed non-stop from Sydney Australia to England via Cape Horn during the early 1970's in a standard 30' bridge-deck catamaran. This is through the roaring 40s in a vessel which many would consider unsuitable for southern ocean sailing.

    Both of these example demonstrate that in addition to having a seaworthy vessel, the other important component of successful offshore sailing is the matter of seamanship.   


    Cooking Fat also went on to take second place in the 2010 Jester Challenge, sailing to windward across the North Atlantic in 34 days.  His return passage to England took just 23 days.  I assisted Rosie and Colin Swale refit Annaliese in Sydney for her Cape Horn voyage.  One of the things we did was to glass stiffeners between the huge windows, and to bolt plywood over them.  You could flex the cabin sides easily with your fingers beforehand.  David Lewis, who was there at the same time preparing Icebird for the Antarctic (he passed me on to Rosie when he left) begged them not to go, saying the boat would be matchwood in a serious gale down there.  He was so concerned he gave them his Gibson Girl emergency radio transmitter.  Ironically, they had no real problems, while he, having left earlier, in the tempestuous Southern Ocean spring months, pitchpoled and struggled to survive.  Bill King also rounded Cape Horn that summer on Galway Blazer, and he mentioned that the weather was exceptionally mild, with moderate winds and sunshine much of the way.

    I have met a number of tiny, seemingly fragile boats successfully crossing oceans over the years.  A common theme in their stories is that they know their limitations and heave-to early, very occasionally having to run off with drogues for survival.  One friend with an open cockpit only ran off once in three circumnavigations, but hove to many times.  There is an old Chinese proverb that says a small weakness can become a great strength, because it sharpens your focus and strategic thinking.  Canny seamanship can take you a long way.  I think Sib-Lim is quite capable of ocean cruising, and Sib-Long, to use Arne's amusing name for the 9m version, would be close to ideal.  Heave to early, slide sideways easily with your shallow draft, to create a nice slick to windward, and put the billy on.  Roger Taylor did it many times on Mingming.  Have a drogue handy, just to cover your options.

    The real challenge of ocean cruising in my opinion is not danger but discomfort.  Sorting out your systems to minimize discomfort is an art-form, and the mark of great seamanship.  Mike Richey came close to perfecting this on Jester, as did Roger Taylor.  Junk rigs, and the ability to sail the boat without going on deck, are a major advantage here, as is a design capable of heaving to.  These are my basic criteria, to which I'd add small portholes, sturdy hatches and a robust rudder, being something of a chicken.   With these things sorted, very small yachts are perfectly safe crossing oceans.

    I have been in two survival storms at sea (not counting cyclones up mangrove creeks), and agree with David Tyler that this indicates carelessness.  The first was in early April, 1974, when I ran into a cyclone in the northern Tasman Sea - it was too early to be out there.  The second was deep in the Southern Ocean in late autumn, 1980, too late to be down there.  My joking rule of thumb is that you are allowed one survival storm every 100,000 miles, or you are doing something wrong.

    PS:  Perhaps one could also say that the skipper is the most important criterion for deciding if a boat is capable of crossing oceans!

    Last modified: 19 Mar 2018 00:29 | Anonymous member
  • 18 Mar 2018 04:52
    Reply # 5984522 on 5880436
    Deleted user

    Following on from Annie's previous comments I can think of two boats which would probably not now meet the bureaucratic requirements for an offshore cruiser but nevertheless  have achieved very significant trans ocean voyages. The first is the 21' Wharram Tiki 21, Cooking Fat, which completed a circumnavigation, although I understand not necessarily with the approval of the designer. Secondly is Rosie Swale who along with her husband and two young children sailed non-stop from Sydney Australia to England via Cape Horn during the early 1970's in a standard 30' bridge-deck catamaran. This is through the roaring 40s in a vessel which many would consider unsuitable for southern ocean sailing.

    Both of these example demonstrate that in addition to having a seaworthy vessel, the other important component of successful offshore sailing is the matter of seamanship.   

  • 18 Mar 2018 00:15
    Reply # 5984338 on 5880436
    I find both Bob's and Arne's comments very interesting and, of course, reassuring.

    I think that those buying small boats are being beaten into the ground by the Recreational Craft Directive which, more or less says that any boat under 32ft is unfit to take offshore.  The Contessa 32 barely scrapes by, the Contessa 26 doesn't.  But neither of the Mingmings nor Jester, to take two obvious examples, is considered fit for anything other than coastal work. 

    We sailed Missee Lee across the Channel and had a wonderful few months in France.  Were she built today, to do so would be 'against the rules'.

    The great, lumbering, plastic catamarans that stagger to New Zealand and get hauled out for a semi rebuild, are considered safe to take around Cape Horn.  Supposedly they will float upside down (with their 2 large engines, their generators, their fridges and freezers and their tons of 'cruising gear'.  Considering that they need a serious refit when they arrive in NZ after a couple of trade wind passages, I can't help wondering how long they would survive upside down.

    Personally, I think that SibLim would stay upside down for considerably less than the two minutes defined by the RCA.  I admit that I would refuse point blank to take her around Cape Horn, but overall, I think she has more ability to go places than I have the guts to sail her.

    We should not be ruled by arbitrary figures, that don't take into account things like hollow masts filling with water, inbuilt inverted instability or, for that matter, the fact that many boats of the same design have safely and happily crossed oceans.  We should ask ourselves how many people we know - or know of - who have sailed thousands of miles offshore, have ever come even close to capsizing.  We are more likely to get killed while driving to look at yet another candidate for the ultimate blue water cruiser, than we are while sailing in our 'unsuitable' small boat.
  • 17 Mar 2018 16:02
    Reply # 5983852 on 5880436
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David
    A few years ago I came across a text from Cruising Club of America. They had come up with a pragmatic formula for calculating something they called a Capsize Ratio. Here is my interpretation of it:

    Now I tried to run SibLim through that formula:
    If her beam is 2.92m(?), and her loaded displacement is 3000kg, then her

    Capsize Ratio, CR = 2.04  -  just a bit higher than their recommended limit of 2.00 (Lower number is better)
    A stretched SibLim (SibLong?) with the same beam, but at 4000kg should come out with a

    CR=1.85.

    In Cruising Club of America’s eyes the SibLong should thus be better for offshore work than SibLim. I think they are right. Still, I think SibLim is fine as she is.

    Arne

     


    Last modified: 18 Mar 2018 08:44 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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