LEXIA & AZAB

  • 16 May 2011 10:57
    Reply # 592204 on 590284
    Jonathan Snodgrass wrote:
    Brian Kerslake wrote: Hi Jonathan

    Great to hear from you and of course my insinuation that you 'must be mad' was just a joke. Of course we all suffer from the same madness/obsession, in varying degrees. Beats watching telly or endless domestic diy which has been the 'joy' of my life for the last couple of years.

    I have an e-bay account so will see if anything useful is on offer and advise - you never know. Failing that you would be very welcome to 'borrow' my trailable charger (as above) as your need is greater than mine and I 'owe you one' for the magnificent sail in Lexia, er, last year?, which, along with much helpful advice from this site, persuaded me to go cambered (agree with your 'add two zeros' comment). Remember 'Paradox' is in Portland and, while I can't be there to watch you set off on June 5th (grandkids visiting) we will be there, Sunbirds alllowing, replacing the Freedom sails (nice in principle but pretty impractical really) from May 19th. So we could get the device to you somehow. Once we've re-rigged and trialled we'll be heading west and south.

    Also, if you need a 'face' in Weymouth to chase up/sort out your drogue, just ask. It's only a couple of miles from Portland, and I have an old folks' bus pass for as long as Herr Cameron allows.

    Best wishes

    Brian Kerslake
    'Paradox'
    Portland Marina - 2012 Olympics base - see new web site -



    Brian, That's a very generous offer.  However, I am reluctant to accept.  You must have your towed generator for your forthcoming cruising and the last thing either of us would want is for it to be elsewhere.  Also it would be too much responsibility for me.  It is all right if it is your own kit and you loose parts or all of it overboard.  If it is someone elses kit and particularly as it would be part of a wind and air set, then it could be the end of a friendship ... If you were short of cash and wanted to sell me the lot that might be another matter.  Please keep looking on E bay.  Thanks.  Jonathan

    Ampair / Aquair towed generators are like busses.  You search for one and suddenly two come along.  I am now back on Lexia in Plymouth.  James whose boat is in the next but one berth was entered and qualified for the AZAB but has had to withdraw due to his work.  As we chatted over the first cup of coffee he totally surprised me by saying that he had purchased a Aquair towed generator and spare propellor for the AZAB and as he wasn't now going he insisted on lending it to me.  Although I had found that Aquagen was no longer in production, Ampair are still producing the Aquair.  This time I have accepted the generous offer.  We have agreed that if I get a Series Drogue, he should borrow it for his hoped for TwinStar entry next year.  So I have spent the usual long time looking at the how and where to mount it.  A previous owner of Lexia had added baskets right across the outside of the pushpit to accommodate six large fenders.  That made sense to him for his day and coastal sailing.  They make less sense to me because the pushpit is now a working area for deployment of the Aquair rope and prop and, heaven forfend, the drogue (and also, when all electrics fail, to towed log) and to work on the Hydrovane.  So, after sleeping on it overnight, the hacksaw and file were put to use yesterday.  It all looks better and more business like immediately, rather like most of us after an overdue haircut.  The boy wonder electrician will come tomorrow evening and we will wire in the Aquair.  James has offered to help with the delivery to the start of the AZAB at Falmouth, I think because he want's to see his Aquair trialled succesfully. 

     

    So, I do now have the potential to generate lots of electricity without the main engine being run.  It will be complicated and not without its downsides and hazards but it is an unexpected step forward.  It is interesting that Aquair specify that one should not use a regulator.  It seems that the regulator cutting in and out provides shock loads.  Rather one is expected to monitor the input via the ammeter and use a switch to switch it off when the batteries are full.  It will then spin freely under no load and less drag.  We shall see ...

     

    I still hanker after a wind gen but always keep coming back to the conclusion that it is not possible, particularly now given the time frame.  However, I will be installing two deck plugs to take two large flexible solar panels if I have the money and do decide to do that.  That seems to me to be the most flexible (in the general sense) approach to further electricity generation wilth no real downsides except the intial cost. 

     

    As so often I am now waiting for about four parcels of bits.  As so often the promised parcel tracking actually doesn't exist.  The critical one is the chain plates for the series drogue.  These things are sent to try us, and they do.  Oh well, worse things happen at sea they say, although I hope not not to me.    jds


     

  • 13 May 2011 15:04
    Reply # 590512 on 590287
    Jonathan Snodgrass wrote:
    David Tyler wrote: Jonathan,
    I agree with Paul, concerning strong attachments for a drogue, well out from the centreline. I have put in two big eyebolts, pointing inwards somewhat, in the direction that the pull is likely to come as the drogue tries to haul the boat straight after she's wandered. The bridle needs to have stainless steel thimbled eyes which are shackled on to the eyebolts. Any kind of drogue will be putting on an enormous load in 50 knots of wind, and lines through a fairlead don't stand a chance, fendered or not. In order to assist with recovery, I would suggest a third line (one of your mooring lines), attached to the far end of the bridle, kept slack normally, and long enough to put onto your biggest winch.
    Having said all that, I've only rigged my drogue as a trial, and haven't actually needed it in more than 60,000 miles of sailing on Tystie. You would be very unlucky indeed to need a drogue in June and July. Just possibly a strong gale as you come into soundings in the Western Approaches would raise enough of a steep sea, but in a "normal" gale, with regular seas, I would have thought that Lexia would be fine, with a scrap of sail up, and steered by the Hydrovane.


    This is an extract from my e mail sent to Oceanbrake this morning.  I have sent the full text to David separately.  I await a response from Oceanbrake.  I am open to any further advice on fixing eye bolts to the transom or indeed chain plates to the hull.  Jonathan

    Dear Roddy

    This subject of the Jordan Series Drogue has been raised by me and now much discussed on the General Forum of the Junk Rig Association.  It is viewable by the public, albeit the contributors are shown as Anon.  You could look at the whole thing.  Please note the good free "advertising".  However, for your convenience, I enclose a couple of extracts below for your information. 
     
                           (Paul and David's comments were inserted  here)
     
    So, the considered opinion is that I must bite the bullet and look at mounting either your chain plates or big eye bolts. 
     
    There seem to be two options available:  chain plates as prescribed by Mr Jordan and supplied by you;  eye bolts as installed by David Tyler on his boat Tystie. 
     
    I have a lot of respect for David Tyler and his work and opinion.  Also, I would find it easier to fix two big eye bolts to the transom (flat surface inside and out, easier to back it off inside, easier to drill one big hole, etc)  rather than chain plates to the hull on the quarters.  This assumes that substantial stainless steel eye bolts are available ex stock in Plymouth, which I think that they will be.  I am not sure what size but it will probably be a case of "if it looks right it will be right".  David's statement that he has inclined his eye bolts in the direction of pull causes me some concern.  That sounds to be more difficult to arrange needing tapered pads inside and out.  I suspect however that it is the usual Tyler council of perfection, and that straight for and aft would be acceptable.  I am not sure about the orientation of the eye ie horizontal or vertical, but I presume that vertical would be acceptable.  I presume that they should be as far outboard as is achievable, subject to still being able to provide a substantial all round backing inside.  It sounds as if it is desirable to have the fixings as low as possible towards the water line from a performance point of view.  However, they presumably need to be easily reachable from above in order to be able to secure the bridles and shackles to the eye bolts whilst underway.  One is not always going to have them attached.  That sounds to me like not much below the top of the transom.  I would accept that mounting chain plates on the hull might be stronger but I hope that the transom would be strong enough.  The hull including the transom is pretty strong.  The hull was laid up in C Glass over a male frame to form the male plug which was then used to make the femal mould.  It is very thick.  I have been told that it is stronger than the moulded  hulls.  It was then used as the hull for the boat.  Etc,etc.
     
    However, all that can be worked out, I hope.  The critical items are:
     
    • I will not be securing the bridles from the cleats and so will require them to be standard length for the width of the transom and they should end in a hard eye for the shackle.
     
    • I presume that I will use eye bolts through the transom unless persuaded to buy and use the chain plates that you supply (Polished stainless steel, £60 per pair undrilled) . 
     
    Could you please therefore requote for the bridle and delete the webbing tube.
     
    Could you please comment on the above if you have any concerns.
     
    Yours etc, jds
    Oceanbrake have some reservations about the use of eye bolts in tension.  I can understand that as a general rule.  However, if it is a big enough eye bolt with a big enough backing plate ... The argument then would be that chain plates provide the widest possible bridle base.  Anyway, they have today despatched a pair of their chain plates with backing plates to the boat for approval or otherwise.  Therefore I could not have asked for more.  I will let you know how I get on.  jds
  • 13 May 2011 11:48
    Reply # 590287 on 590080
    David Tyler wrote: Jonathan,
    I agree with Paul, concerning strong attachments for a drogue, well out from the centreline. I have put in two big eyebolts, pointing inwards somewhat, in the direction that the pull is likely to come as the drogue tries to haul the boat straight after she's wandered. The bridle needs to have stainless steel thimbled eyes which are shackled on to the eyebolts. Any kind of drogue will be putting on an enormous load in 50 knots of wind, and lines through a fairlead don't stand a chance, fendered or not. In order to assist with recovery, I would suggest a third line (one of your mooring lines), attached to the far end of the bridle, kept slack normally, and long enough to put onto your biggest winch.
    Having said all that, I've only rigged my drogue as a trial, and haven't actually needed it in more than 60,000 miles of sailing on Tystie. You would be very unlucky indeed to need a drogue in June and July. Just possibly a strong gale as you come into soundings in the Western Approaches would raise enough of a steep sea, but in a "normal" gale, with regular seas, I would have thought that Lexia would be fine, with a scrap of sail up, and steered by the Hydrovane.


    This is an extract from my e mail sent to Oceanbrake this morning.  I have sent the full text to David separately.  I await a response from Oceanbrake.  I am open to any further advice on fixing eye bolts to the transom or indeed chain plates to the hull.  Jonathan

    Dear Roddy

    This subject of the Jordan Series Drogue has been raised by me and now much discussed on the General Forum of the Junk Rig Association.  It is viewable by the public, albeit the contributors are shown as Anon.  You could look at the whole thing.  Please note the good free "advertising".  However, for your convenience, I enclose a couple of extracts below for your information. 
     
                           (Paul and David's comments were inserted  here)
     
    So, the considered opinion is that I must bite the bullet and look at mounting either your chain plates or big eye bolts. 
     
    There seem to be two options available:  chain plates as prescribed by Mr Jordan and supplied by you;  eye bolts as installed by David Tyler on his boat Tystie. 
     
    I have a lot of respect for David Tyler and his work and opinion.  Also, I would find it easier to fix two big eye bolts to the transom (flat surface inside and out, easier to back it off inside, easier to drill one big hole, etc)  rather than chain plates to the hull on the quarters.  This assumes that substantial stainless steel eye bolts are available ex stock in Plymouth, which I think that they will be.  I am not sure what size but it will probably be a case of "if it looks right it will be right".  David's statement that he has inclined his eye bolts in the direction of pull causes me some concern.  That sounds to be more difficult to arrange needing tapered pads inside and out.  I suspect however that it is the usual Tyler council of perfection, and that straight for and aft would be acceptable.  I am not sure about the orientation of the eye ie horizontal or vertical, but I presume that vertical would be acceptable.  I presume that they should be as far outboard as is achievable, subject to still being able to provide a substantial all round backing inside.  It sounds as if it is desirable to have the fixings as low as possible towards the water line from a performance point of view.  However, they presumably need to be easily reachable from above in order to be able to secure the bridles and shackles to the eye bolts whilst underway.  One is not always going to have them attached.  That sounds to me like not much below the top of the transom.  I would accept that mounting chain plates on the hull might be stronger but I hope that the transom would be strong enough.  The hull including the transom is pretty strong.  The hull was laid up in C Glass over a male frame to form the male plug which was then used to make the femal mould.  It is very thick.  I have been told that it is stronger than the moulded  hulls.  It was then used as the hull for the boat.  Etc,etc.
     
    However, all that can be worked out, I hope.  The critical items are:
     
    • I will not be securing the bridles from the cleats and so will require them to be standard length for the width of the transom and they should end in a hard eye for the shackle.
     
    • I presume that I will use eye bolts through the transom unless persuaded to buy and use the chain plates that you supply (Polished stainless steel, £60 per pair undrilled) . 
     
    Could you please therefore requote for the bridle and delete the webbing tube.
     
    Could you please comment on the above if you have any concerns.
     
    Yours etc, jds
  • 13 May 2011 11:36
    Reply # 590284 on 589883
    Brian Kerslake wrote: Hi Jonathan

    Great to hear from you and of course my insinuation that you 'must be mad' was just a joke. Of course we all suffer from the same madness/obsession, in varying degrees. Beats watching telly or endless domestic diy which has been the 'joy' of my life for the last couple of years.

    I have an e-bay account so will see if anything useful is on offer and advise - you never know. Failing that you would be very welcome to 'borrow' my trailable charger (as above) as your need is greater than mine and I 'owe you one' for the magnificent sail in Lexia, er, last year?, which, along with much helpful advice from this site, persuaded me to go cambered (agree with your 'add two zeros' comment). Remember 'Paradox' is in Portland and, while I can't be there to watch you set off on June 5th (grandkids visiting) we will be there, Sunbirds alllowing, replacing the Freedom sails (nice in principle but pretty impractical really) from May 19th. So we could get the device to you somehow. Once we've re-rigged and trialled we'll be heading west and south.

    Also, if you need a 'face' in Weymouth to chase up/sort out your drogue, just ask. It's only a couple of miles from Portland, and I have an old folks' bus pass for as long as Herr Cameron allows.

    Best wishes

    Brian Kerslake
    'Paradox'
    Portland Marina - 2012 Olympics base - see new web site -



    Brian, That's a very generous offer.  However, I am reluctant to accept.  You must have your towed generator for your forthcoming cruising and the last thing either of us would want is for it to be elsewhere.  Also it would be too much responsibility for me.  It is all right if it is your own kit and you loose parts or all of it overboard.  If it is someone elses kit and particularly as it would be part of a wind and air set, then it could be the end of a friendship ... If you were short of cash and wanted to sell me the lot that might be another matter.  Please keep looking on E bay.  Thanks.  Jonathan
  • 12 May 2011 23:28
    Reply # 590080 on 578295
    Jonathan,
    I agree with Paul, concerning strong attachments for a drogue, well out from the centreline. I have put in two big eyebolts, pointing inwards somewhat, in the direction that the pull is likely to come as the drogue tries to haul the boat straight after she's wandered. The bridle needs to have stainless steel thimbled eyes which are shackled on to the eyebolts. Any kind of drogue will be putting on an enormous load in 50 knots of wind, and lines through a fairlead don't stand a chance, fendered or not. In order to assist with recovery, I would suggest a third line (one of your mooring lines), attached to the far end of the bridle, kept slack normally, and long enough to put onto your biggest winch.
    Having said all that, I've only rigged my drogue as a trial, and haven't actually needed it in more than 60,000 miles of sailing on Tystie. You would be very unlucky indeed to need a drogue in June and July. Just possibly a strong gale as you come into soundings in the Western Approaches would raise enough of a steep sea, but in a "normal" gale, with regular seas, I would have thought that Lexia would be fine, with a scrap of sail up, and steered by the Hydrovane.
  • 12 May 2011 20:56
    Reply # 589974 on 589688
    Jonathan Snodgrass wrote:

    As regards the Series Drogue, I have now spoken to Mr Oceanbrake, who is adamant that the drogue needs to be attached with a bridle from each quarter, for geometric and dynamic reasons, so a bridle it has to be, although I will ask for extra length to back it  up to the midships cleats and for webbing tube as sacrificial chafe at the fairleads. 


    Jonathan, he is correct. The bridle gives the drogue additional leverage to pull the boat into alignment. The wider the base, the better.

    On La Chica during the current refit, I have now welded attachment points to the hull at the chine just as it leaves the water. The tangs are strong enough to pick the boat up with. Putting the tangs outside of the hull means no chafe as the bridle does not come aboard. The bridal will be attached before I leave for a voyage and each half stowed in a bag on the lifelines (port & starboard). The two halves are joined when the drogue is deployed.
  • 12 May 2011 20:25
    Reply # 589938 on 589894
    Brian Kerslake wrote:
    Hi again Jonathan

    Nothing towable on eBay. Lots of windvanes, though mostly horizontal.

    Re the Aquagen in Plymouth, might one of these do the trick? Your leckybod should know.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/24-Volt-12-Converter-Transformer/dp/B003F12UDG

    Brian
    Paradox
    Portland Marina
    Brian, Thank you for that.  I am told by the experts I consulted, namely Sterling and the boy wonder electrician, and indeed by Yacht Parts, that the gizmo you gave the link to is not the answer.  It is fine for running small 12 volt  equipment from a 24 volt supply eg from some vehicles.  However, it is not the answer for charging 12 volt batteries.  The 24 volt generator would require a complex installation involving an additional bank of 24 volt batteries.  As a mechanical engineer, I am prepared to take their word for it.  So, another one bites the dust, but keep the suggestions coming.  Jonathan
  • 12 May 2011 19:14
    Reply # 589894 on 578295
    Hi again Jonathan

    Nothing towable on eBay. Lots of windvanes, though mostly horizontal.

    Re the Aquagen in Plymouth, might one of these do the trick? Your leckybod should know.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/24-Volt-12-Converter-Transformer/dp/B003F12UDG

    Brian
    Paradox
    Portland Marina
  • 12 May 2011 18:53
    Reply # 589883 on 578295
    Hi Jonathan

    Great to hear from you and of course my insinuation that you 'must be mad' was just a joke. Of course we all suffer from the same madness/obsession, in varying degrees. Beats watching telly or endless domestic diy which has been the 'joy' of my life for the last couple of years.

    I have an e-bay account so will see if anything useful is on offer and advise - you never know. Failing that you would be very welcome to 'borrow' my trailable charger (as above) as your need is greater than mine and I 'owe you one' for the magnificent sail in Lexia, er, last year?, which, along with much helpful advice from this site, persuaded me to go cambered (agree with your 'add two zeros' comment). Remember 'Paradox' is in Portland and, while I can't be there to watch you set off on June 5th (grandkids visiting) we will be there, Sunbirds alllowing, replacing the Freedom sails (nice in principle but pretty impractical really) from May 19th. So we could get the device to you somehow. Once we've re-rigged and trialled we'll be heading west and south.

    Also, if you need a 'face' in Weymouth to chase up/sort out your drogue, just ask. It's only a couple of miles from Portland, and I have an old folks' bus pass for as long as Herr Cameron allows.

    Best wishes

    Brian Kerslake
    'Paradox'
    Portland Marina - 2012 Olympics base - see new web site -



  • 12 May 2011 14:41
    Reply # 589688 on 589661
    Mark Thomasson wrote:

    Very much enjoyed this subject and all the wonderful replies from sailors with real experience.  Isn't the JRA great!

    Small clarifiction for Jonathan,  does the AIS transmit as well as recieve?  Given a choice, which would come first the Sea-me or the AIS?

    many thanks

    Mark Thomasson 


    Mark, Good question.

     

    For OSTAR 2009 it was a requirement to have an active radar target enhancer.  I bought a Sea Me (it is not the only make) which at that time was produced as X band only.  There was no requirement to have AIS but I decided to buy a  passive AIS, sometimes referred to as an "AIS radar" because of the radar like display.  I thought that the Sea Me with the bleeper on would tell me when we (that is Lexia and I) had been hit by a radar and then I would look at the passive AIS to see what ships nearby were transimitting AIS signatures.  The passive AIS radar was cheapish, say £200 and effective, although it had only a black and grey screen.  To allow it to function through the masthead VHF antenna at the same time (or at least mulitplexed) with the VHF radio, I purchased a splitter.  This also allows the FM radio to use the antenna.  The splitter requires power, but a small load only, although it is yet another 24 hour load. 

     

    For AZAB 2011 I am still required to have an active radar target enhancer.  However Sea Me (and others) have produced dual X and S band machines and so I decided to trade in my original with Sea Me and paid the difference for a X and S band machine.

     

    However, it is now an ISAF Category One requirement to have an "AIS transponder" ie send and receive.  This has I presume been prompted by the production of Class B sets aimed at the leisure market.  They do not include all the whistles that the Class A commercial sets include, but they include all the bells that a small boat leisure sailor is likely to require.  My Raymarine set cost about £800 from memory.  (The cheapest supplier I could find in UK was Redcar Electonics who were very helpful and effecient.) It is colour and bright, which I find very helpful as the eyes are not what they used to be.  Fortunately the splitter was adequate for an active Class B, but would not have been suitable for an active Class A. 

     

    As so often, I considered keeping the passive set as a reserve for the active set but decided that this was probably not justified.  I have sold it to someone else in Millbay marina for half what I paid for it. 

     

    Now to your question, given a choice which would come first, Sea Me or AIS.  The answer must be AIS.  I base this on the assumption that you have or at a reasonable cost could have a passive radar reflector, which goes someway to meet the need to be seen on radar.  However, AIS has provided a whole new world of safety enhancement and the only way into that is to buy a set.  For the cost of a passive set and a separate antenna or an antenna splitter, you can be part of that scene.   If you take the view that the best rule of collision safety is for the small sail boat sailor to assume that might is right, a passive set gives you sufficient information to avoid all the big commercial vessels that will constantly tell you exactly what they are, what their name and call sign and MMSI are, where they are, what they are doing, where they are going and how near you and they will pass (closest point of approach) and when that will happen.  You can also set range rings and warnings.  If your VHF set is modern and up market, (mine isn't), it can be linked to the AIS so that you can highlight a target on the AIS screen and call it on VHF DSC automatically. For me to call a ship digitally, I would have to enter their  MMSI on my radio which is at best tortuous.  I would however at least be able to call it by name.  I generally keep the screen as "North Up" but if it is getting a bit hectic and I am tired, I will switch to "Course Up" which helps to tell me where I should look from the boat, eg "port bow", without having to do any mental gymnastics. 

    However, if you can afford it, an active AIS gives another reassurance that you have done everything possible to give them their best possible chance of avoiding hitting you, if that is what the collision avoidance rules say that they should do.  Then an active AIS would definitely be a priority purchase over a Sea Me.  Remember the Ouzo collision.  With active AIS on both vessels (not practical then but practical now) they would probably not have collided. 

     

    However, don't forget that for motor vessels engaged in fishing, you as a sail boat are the give way vessel. 

     

    I talked recently to someone who drives big "Grey Funnel Line" vessels and he pointed out that on operations or exercises, they may switch off their AIS, radars and lights, for obvious reasons, which just goes to show that you can take your precautions only so far ... 

     

    I hope that all that helps.  

     

    As regards the Series Drogue, I have now spoken to Mr Oceanbrake, who is adamant that the drogue needs to be attached with a bridle from each quarter, for geometric and dynamic reasons, so a bridle it has to be, although I will ask for extra length to back it  up to the midships cleats and for webbing tube as sacrificial chafe at the fairleads. 

     

    Jonathan

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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