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Selway-Fisher Pioneer 23

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  • 15 Sep 2017 23:48
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    Reply # 5262993 on 5261649
    Anonymous member
    Colin Walker wrote:Annie for the sake of my knowledge, what ill effects does the aft rake have and why? Is this a junk rig thing or is it a design thing? I just want to learn as much as I can from knowledgeable folks such as yourself

    On that note, since it would no doubt be major copyright infringement to scan the plans for you all (and the rest of the Internet) to see, what will be the best way to communicate what I am seeing? All of you picked up on things I either had no clue about or that it was a passing thought. Just wondering the best approach on that. 
    On of the major reasons that western boats have a mast with aft rake, is that in the days of working sail, they could be used as a cargo derrick. The cargo 'automatically' swings in over the hold.  It also meant that the gaff would tend to swing back rather than further out.  If neither of these are wanted, it's much better IMHO, to rake the mast forward and then the sail will want to swing out.  When you are running in light airs, this is a great advantage, especially if you have a particularly choppy sea, eg backwash from cliffs, tidal popple, etc.  An additional advantage for this particularly lazy sailor, is that you can sail by the lee until the wind is almost on the 'wrong' beam to save you having to gybe when running up a zig-zag channel.

    I can see no reason why you shouldn't scan the study plans and put them in your album for discussion.  If you have the normal privacy settings in your profile, these can only be viewed by members anyway, and I don't think anyone in the JRA is likely to build a boat from a scanned set of study plans.  If you're really bothered you could scan a low definition, or delete the scale!


    Last modified: 15 Sep 2017 23:51 | Anonymous member
  • 15 Sep 2017 05:48
    Quote
    Reply # 5261649 on 5073855
    Deleted user



    Looks like we are in universal agreement here on the transom and rudder situation. I would assume this would have the added effect of making (or fitting) a self steering windvane easier to make/mount. 

    Annie for the sake of my knowledge, what ill effects does the aft rake have and why? Is this a junk rig thing or is it a design thing? I just want to learn as much as I can from knowledgeable folks such as yourself. Also I did some more looking for the Stone Horse, only thing I could find was a  quarterly publication by Wooden Boat back in 2000 that covered the 23 by Crocker and 26 foot version by Bolger (didn't realize he drew the 26). But I am in agreement with you fully about how boats we designed in the old days, big cockpits, small cabins, not to my liking, but they are  Beautiful boats. Not that the Pioneer would be a mansion on the inside but I think in that regard it's better off than the Stone Horse.


    David, you largely summed up what I had envisioned for what I want to see in the Pioneer's cabin. I like the idea of the bulkhead (I envision at least) to create a private head along with some storage and the galley placement. I like the sounds of what you outlined quite a lot. I am going to be ordering study plans soon so I can get a real look at it. On that note, since it would no doubt be major copyright infringement to scan the plans for you all (and the rest of the Internet) to see, what will be the best way to communicate what I am seeing? All of you picked up on things I either had no clue about or that it was a passing thought. Just wondering the best approach on that. 
  • 13 Sep 2017 21:49
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    Reply # 5150544 on 5073855
    Anonymous member

    I've had a quick look at the only info I could find about the Pioneer 23, which wasn't much.  On  enormous caveat I would have would be with the rudder.  It looks very similar to the one that Jay Benford designed for Badger, which we had to remove and replace, because, if I recall the fault correctly, the CE was well behind the hinge point.  (The rudder that he shows in his plans as being the one we finally fitted to Badger is incorrect.)  David mentioned this, of course, but I'm just reinforcing his comments.

    I would also note that his junk rig shows a mast raked aft: if Arne has a thing about rudders, I have one about mast rake and am convinced that whatever else, you don't want it raked aft!  David has suggested that 'we look at it', so I dare say you took that on board. 

    My own addition would be to eliminate the solid dodger thingy and replace it with a good honest-to-goodness pram hood, a la PJR.  Wonderful things.

    I thought the Stone Horse plans were available through Wooden Boat designs.  If not, maybe they could point you in the right direction.  Strange name, lovely boat.  But of an era that could well have big cockpit and small accommodation.
  • 13 Sep 2017 21:32
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    Reply # 5148969 on 5075920
    Anonymous member
    Arne Kverneland wrote:PS: I very much agree with David's comments yesterday on improving the rudder - but then I am quite a rudder fanatic...
    Really, Arne?  I'd never have guessed ;-)
  • 13 Sep 2017 09:11
    Quote
    Reply # 5079578 on 5073855
    Anonymous member

    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    After following some of these topics, it seems to me that several models of both the Newbridges and the Kingfishers need new rudders. This they do no matter what rig one fits onto them. If a deep, large swing-up rudder is out of the question, I suggest one fits twin, balanced rudders (with endplates, of course) on the transom. This will also let one mount the outboard engine on the centreline, between the rudders.

    This makes sense for the Pioneer 23, just as it does for SibLim.
  • 13 Sep 2017 08:28
    Quote
    Reply # 5078634 on 5073855
    Anonymous member

    OK, Colin, you've convinced me that you've chosen the right design. Another saying we might throw in here is "Go small, Go simple, Go now" (Lin Pardey). In an ideal world, the singlehanded cruiser has the luxury of a 29ft, 4 ton boat (or in the case of Hobbits like Annie, a 26ft, 3 ton boat). But we don't live in an ideal world, and we have to do the best we can with what we've got. Annie's right, the Pioneer will make 1000 mile passages easily enough. A 3000 mile passage across the Atlantic is in a different league, though, and needs building up to, with several years of less demanding passages.

    Enough with the philosophy. What needs changing on the Pioneer 23? Not much. Mainly a question of laying out the accommodation to suit a singlehander living aboard, rather than a young family of four weekending aboard.

    I'd put a full bulkhead 7ft forward of the companionway bulkhead. Forward of this would be the heads, hanging space for coats, and stowage for an inflatable tender, warps and fenders. Immediately aft of the bulkhead, 2ft of length on both sides would be devoted to the galley, cooker on one side and sink on the other. Then two settee berths 6ft6in long, with 1ft 6in in a "trotter box" under the cockpit. Under the after halves of the settees are battery, tools and spares. Under the forward halves is food stowage. Outboard of the settees is clothes stowage. Under the cockpit, in place of the engine, is water stowage, 6 x 10 litres.

    The only thing that needs mentioning to Paul Fisher is that full main bulkhead. The rest can be done on an ad hoc basis.

    Without seeing the plans, I can't comment on the doghouse that is only vaguely sketched in. Certainly the form of the companionway needs to be different for serious cruising from that for weekending in good weather, but that part of the build is a long way down the road.
  • 13 Sep 2017 04:05
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    Reply # 5078049 on 5073855
    Deleted user



    I should also add I am very much onboard with what David and Annie both touched on about outboard vs. inboard and not going crazy on additions to the cabin. Keep it simple sailor sums it up wonderfully, I very much support this ideology.

    Last modified: 13 Sep 2017 04:06 | Deleted user
  • 13 Sep 2017 04:00
    Quote
    Reply # 5078046 on 5073855
    Deleted user



    First off, thanks for all the replies, lots of info to take in here. Also another thanks for speaking about boats in plain English, no antiquated or obscure industry specific terminology that flies right over a greenhorns head. 

    The discussion about the Benford 26 has been very beneficial to my learning, I certainly learned a lot about twin keels, I look at them much differently now. But once we got down to brass tacks on the Benford Vs Pioneer the talk about the added cost really scared me away from the Benford. While the 26 has definitive advantages over the Pioneer the cost would cause significant delays in completion. I plan to go in phases when building, whatever I have extra to spend to pump that into the build. I am certainly open to other suggestions on designs but something on the same vein as Pioneer, with cost and design in mind, would be most helpful. A few other I've considered are Sam Crocker's Stone Horse, Roberto Barros' Pop 20, Chuck Paine's Frances I and II, Dudley Dix's Piepowder 16 and Bolger's AS29. I also have a soft spot for John Welsford's Fafnir, Swaggie and Sundowner (honestly just about everything he draws I like) as well as Hartley's Norsk 40, which is just entirely too big of project, financially and timewise. Of all these boat Pioneer is the front runner thus far, it's almost the perfect balance of design, cost, size, usability, construction and its draw for a junk rig too boot, even with its compromises I'm still liking it. The Stone Horse is kind of a wild card, there is plenty of info about it but finding plans is like an Easter egg hunt and designer support isn't possible from a man whose been dead 50 years. That said, if anyone can think of anything else comparable to the Pioneer, I am all ears. 

    Now what I am wondering what can be done to make the Pioneer all it can be with  knowing my desires in the sailing world. Of course this discussion would have to happen with Mr. Fisher but saying "I like it but make it better" is a little vauge, don't ya think? Aside from the transom and rudder changes we all agree on, what else can be done, within reason?

    Thank you all again!

    Regards 
  • 12 Sep 2017 22:14
    Quote
    Reply # 5076971 on 5075968
    Anonymous member
    Colin Walker wrote:

    The Benford is one that I've bumped into a few times. I like the idea of more room and having a inboard engine but these both come at a greater cost of course. How much more difficult of a build would the Benford be over the Pioneer? Also what advantage would the twin keels have over a more traditional keel? Aside from the grounding ability described in the article, which is nice, twin keels make a little nervous about construction and (maybe I am totally wrong here) I feel like they would be more fragile comparatively speaking. But the Benford looks good and the layout shown shows a lot of promise for what I am looking for and (possibly) aside from the keels I like it's added fetures. I guess it's a matter of how much greater the cost and difficulty to build is. I'm guessing the cost increase is hard to guess on, but are we talking 5-10% increase or 25% increase?

    Just because Benford designed the boat with an inboard engine, doesn't mean you have to have one.  You can double the price of the basic engine by the time it's installed and it's a long, complicated business fitting one, with lots of ancillary equipment required.  Just fit an outboard.

    Twin keels make heaps of sense in many tidal regions, as long as they are well designed - like those on David's lovely little Weaverbird and, again properly designed, are just as strong as a fin.

    While I agree in many ways with David about size, I think you could happily take a 23ft boat on a thousand mile passage if you are up to it. But as I've said before: many are called, but few are chosen when it comes to sailing small boats long distances.  As a compromise, you could build one of John Welsford's camping/cruising boats, which would give you a taste for cruising: that would be faster and cheaper to build.  He's a lug man rather than a junk man, so you'd probably want to design the rig.

    As for David's desiderata:

    • You have an overwhelming urge to create beautiful and useful things, and a good track record of so doing - not in my case.  I'm not particularly creative.
    • You have enough experience to know in detail exactly what kind of boat you need to build, and why, and that boat is not currently available in the marketplace - that is my major, if not sole, reason for building.  That and to end up with a new boat to see me out.
    • You have a low rent, sheltered and convenient place to build - at NZ$650 a month, my rent is eating into may capital in a frightening manner.  But I can live on less than I do and am prepared to do so at the end of the project.
    • You have enough spare time and money to complete the project quickly, without having to worry about earning an income - quickly is also relative.  I'm not a fast worker.
    • You have a pool of willing, skilled friends and relatives who will bear a hand when needed - I have done 95% of the work on the boat on my own.  The help that I would really appreciate would be people shopping washing, cleaning and cooking for me - and taking over the job of Chairman!!  It's not that easy to organise other people and you spend a lot of energy worrying that they aren't enjoying it, that it's time for their coffee/lunch break, etc.  (Worse, you feel you have to give them the 'lolly' jobs, which you'd been looking forward to yourself!)  David, of course, gave me a huge amount of help at the start of the project, Rob Prince has been a stalwart member of the SibLim Club and Marcus, although he can't work with epoxy, has helped me with some of the big fairing jobs - such as the sheer clamp - that I was really frightened about handling and giving me advice and helping me 'nut out' problems.
    • And probably some more

    Personally, I think the most important questions are: can I afford it and will I finish it?  I think you have to assume that you will sell at a loss: that way you build only for yourself.  And you have to know that you are the sort of person who will see the job through. 

    Last modified: 12 Sep 2017 22:18 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Sep 2017 21:45
    Quote
    Reply # 5076875 on 5075814
    Anonymous member
    David Tyler wrote: With the most profound respect, madam, you are not. You have been second-in-command on two new builds, and are by no means a tyro in the article of handing wood, epoxy, paint and sailcloth.
    No David,far from being second-in-command, I was barely an apprentice.  I wasn't "allowed" to do anything other than cut panels of plywood to fit inside door frames (or strips of wood, ditto), lay acres of glass with epoxy and sand and - sometimes - apply paint, (but not topcoat outside) and varnish.  Nor was I permitted to do anything other than help measure or move sail material.


    Before starting SibLim I had built two stitch-and-glue dinghies.  John Welsford gave me some very much needed lessons in handling a plane and a chisel and Marcus has shown me lots of 'tricks of the trade', some of which were very basic like using a saw properly.  I still have massive problems handling a jigsaw and producing anything that looks remotely like a straight line; or drilling a perpendicular hole.  It was you who explained to me how screws work and how you have to drill a clearance hole.  I cut my piece of wood wrongly about one time in three; I still have to turn it round and try fitting three times before I get it right, even when I've just sawn it.  Most weeks I have to undo something that I've just done, because of my complete incapacity to visualise in three dimensions and I often have to 'alter' stuff because I literally can't think beyond the next two or three stages.  Without epoxy, I would be incapable of producing a boat that stayed together and didn't leak like a sieve.

    If I can build a boat - anyone can!
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