Engineless Junk

  • 22 Apr 2017 00:27
    Reply # 4768542 on 4762649
    Deleted user

    First of all, thank you to all of you not only for so much response; but for so much intelligent response. This site is certainly unique in many ways.

    I have decided I will work through this is stages. As Serenity already has a Bukh DV20 in good order, I will keep it serviced and ready for use during the immediate period following her conversion. I can then get more familiar with the JR with a 'safety line', especially as I am based in the UK for the next couple of years. But I will attempt to ignore it and see how it works out. All going well I will remove it in the very near future.

    My drive is for a simplicity, low cost/maintenance, and a little guilty purism if I am honest, so the electric approach is sensible but probably not on the cards. I am very interested in what you wrote about an oversized sail Graham, so I will look into this further whilst designing the new rig.

    Very good points Annie and Arne - anchoring power and Yuloh power is something I did not consider. One day I will be older! This engine can indeed be hand started so it does allow me to simplify my electrics, which I am also always happy to do.

    True words Kurt!

    Again, it's a good day when I can connect with everything that has been posted; thank you all again.

    James

  • 21 Apr 2017 11:38
    Reply # 4767282 on 4762649

    I've been "motorless in training" for a few years, with a small electric outboard (small boat too) that has helped to ease the process of figuring out how to manage without it, while gradually using it less and less. It finally went on the dock this past summer, which was a great joy. The thing that makes this feel safe is the yuloh, as well as quite a bit of thinking ahead, while sailing. The yuloh makes all the difference when the wind dies, and the waves are pushing the boat toward the shore. It's also surprising how much ground you can cover with it when not worried about imminent problems. Nothing better to do, when the wind goes away for long stretches, a mile or two out of a nice harbor! Friends in Alaska have been known to yuloh their cruising, live aboard boat five or 10 miles, in a relaxed way, just keeping at it.

    The thing that I noticed most when I took the little motor completely off the boat was that I became an even more cautious sailor, in simple decisions about lee shores and rocks. This has felt in some ways safer than having the motor, because of the way motors can decline to start at incredibly inconvenient times.

    As for junk or BR being safer without a motor, if your boat will point fairly well with the junk rig, to me the junk rig seems safer because of the ease of reefing and unreefing. In a tight spot, that you might otherwise get through with a strong motor, quick and efficient management of sail area can make the difference in how things turn out. I've found the junk rig a big help with this.

  • 20 Apr 2017 22:21
    Reply # 4766569 on 4762649
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    James Lovett wrote:

    Hi All,

    I have now started to the design to convert my Elizabethan 31 to a junk rig, and am seriously considering selling the engine in the process. Would losing it seriously compromise safety with a junk rig anymore than what it does with a Bermudian?

    James

    I would say that sailing without an engine on board would be less problematic or unsafe with a junkrig than with a Bermuda rig. This is simply because sailing a JR in shifting conditions is so much easier than sailing a BR.

    Arne


    Last modified: 20 Mar 2022 10:29 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Apr 2017 21:26
    Reply # 4766467 on 4762649
    Deleted user
    An interesting thread, but to get back to the original question - would the consensus be that the answer is: no, it wouldn't? 
  • 20 Apr 2017 16:20
    Reply # 4765567 on 4762649
    Deleted user

    I'm going to have to chime in again for seriously considering an electric motor.  They are quiet, have instant torque, nearly zero maintenance, very clean, and take up no more room or weight than a diesel, including the larger house bank of batteries.  Price is about 15% more for a full new installation. The main detriment versus a diesel is that you don't have 600 Nm cruising range at 5 knots.  For my boat, with a full charge, my range is 9 Nm at 5.6 knots, and 71 Nm at 2.6 knots.  With a couple of solar panels, I can slip silently along at 1 knot with no limit to range.

    Last modified: 20 Apr 2017 16:21 | Deleted user
  • 20 Apr 2017 11:23
    Reply # 4765222 on 4762649
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    James,

    Whether sailing without an engine is wise or not, depends of many factors.

    Work and family situation:
    If you don’t have a fixed work schedule, you are quite free to leave and return as the wind and tide allows you. Quite the opposite would be if you need to be home to go to work, or for the children to get to school in time: That would suggest; fit a reliable, fairly powerful engine.

    Preferred harbours.
    If you frequently use marina-type harbours, you will need some sort of engine, not necessarily so powerful, but reliable and easy to operate for close manoeuvring.
     

    Staying off a lee shore.
    Your Elisabethan 31 is probably more weatherly than most and should let you climb away from a lee shore in quite rough conditions. If the wind is too light and the tide too strong, you’d better have a good anchor ready. However, a quick-starting engine is seriously nice to have for coastal cruising: If something goes wrong in the rig, one has little time to sort it out before hitting the shore. A reliable engine, even a not so strong one, raises the safety level. If the engine is not strong enough to push you straight against a strong wind, you can still tack your way upwind under engine, with such a good hull.

    Long distance cruising.
    I bet those who cross oceans, sail a much larger part of the distance than most coastal sailors do (with or without a work schedule). I guess I would still have a small diesel on a 5-ton boat like yours, partly to sneak over wide calm spots at low speed. To minimise complications (..and keep you from getting a “12Volt neurosis”... ), I strongly suggest you
     choose  an engine which can be hand-started. This frees you from bothering with all these battery and charging backups  -  and backups on the backups: No fear of being stuck on a “black ship”.

    Anchoring.
    A good anchoring setup will help keeping you safe and free from using marinas often. However, your boat is over 5 tons. That means you have to pull or winch up a quite big hook. My guess is that, after a few years, an electric capstan or a regular anchor winch will, little by little, have moved upwards on your wish-list. Then, somehow you need to charge the battery. Don’t ask me if solar panels are enough for that, I don’t know.

    Sooo,
    I think I in most cases would suggest fitting an engine. The ability to hand-crank it in a pinch saves you, as said, from the usual electric complexity and confusion connected to most diesel engine installations.

    Arne


    Last modified: 20 Apr 2017 22:12 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Apr 2017 08:49
    Reply # 4765050 on 4762649
    The first three boats I lived on were engine-free.  It teaches you seamanship, and patience, but patience is a virtue easily fatigued by exercise.  I think the best result of living without an engine is that you never really quite trust them and so you motor a little more 'mindfully' because of that.

    I would never choose to sail without an engine again, simply because I find it infuriating to be a couple of miles from my destination, in a flat calm and no expectation of any wind before morning.  However, I intend only to have a true auxiliary on the boat that I'm building and will provide myself with a yuloh, so that when the distance isn't too great, I don't need to shatter the peace and tranquillity with the noise of a motor, but can yuloh in quietly.  This will not only save me money, but will be far better for my soul and also for other people's enjoyment of a quiet and calm evening.

    I suspect that I may well resort to motor-sailing on occasion when a chosen anchorage is dead to windward.

    The fact that you can leave the junk under full sail in a calm, without the canvas flogging about, is a genuine advantage, enabling you to sail instantly the wind returns.


  • 20 Apr 2017 06:50
    Reply # 4764789 on 4762649
    Deleted user

    Lot's of response on this one. Certainly Alan on Zebedee has shown that an engine-less junk rig yacht can circumnavigate the globe. I think it comes down more to how much time and patience you have, the type of sailing you are doing including time constraints, and the waters in which you are sailing which would include where your boat is moored or berthed and can you access that mooring without an engine. Although I enjoy the art of sailing and the satisfaction of doing things without an engine, for me I need an engine because there are time constraints on my sailing such as needing to back for work, and tidal flow through my mooring area which would make my mooring inaccessible in times of little or no wind and strong tidal flow.

    Last modified: 20 Apr 2017 06:52 | Deleted user
  • 20 Apr 2017 05:13
    Reply # 4764689 on 4762649
    Deleted user

    For me the type of rig would not be the deciding factor. In shifty, squirrelly conditions, I'd rate Fantail with her junk rig as easier and more capable than the Bermudan rig on my previous, considerably smaller and lighter boat. If clawing away from rocks, against a tide, in very light winds and bad chop, on starboard tack, I'd have to say the Bermudan would have the advantage. (There. I said it on the JRA website.)

    However, like the previous posters, for me the decision to go engineless would be down to my own virtues or lack thereof: my patience and seamanship would be the factors I'd assess, and rig choice would be inconsequential.

    Last modified: 20 Apr 2017 05:15 | Deleted user
  • 20 Apr 2017 04:11
    Reply # 4764607 on 4762649

    Hi James,

    Better a junk rig that you learn to do everything with, conservative habits, and no motor...

    Than a motor and any rig that you never have to learn to do everything with, so you don't.

    I've settled for not much motor, electric, and use it seldom. But with a 31' boat, in a windy-enough area, if few appointments, I'd be tempted to leave it out altogether. Living without a diesel is a joy in itself, either way.

    What you don't have, you never have to fix.

    Cheers, Kurt

    Last modified: 20 Apr 2017 04:13 | Anonymous member
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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