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Engineless Junk

  • 24 Apr 2017 09:10
    Quote
    Reply # 4771715 on 4762649
    Anonymous member

    I can think of two instances where having a motor, and using it, got me into - ahem - embarrassing situations, though not dangerous ones.

    1. When going through the Higgins Passage, BC, I decided to have a look onto an uncharted lagoon. Flat calm, no current, water the colour of strong tea, so any shoals wouldn't show up. Just after HW. Of course, I shouldn't have given into a whim, and paid for it by spending a tide perched on a rock. The only rock in the lagoon, as I saw at LW. Had to go onto a (soft) beach next day, and patch the glass on the bilge runner.

    2. Making for Oak Bay, Vancouver Island, calm, strong ebb, motoring to arrive when I had said I'd arrive, cut too close to Fiddle Reef, where I swear on my grandmother's grave that the chart is wrong, and shows enough water where in fact there is a shoal spot. Spent a tide perched on a rock. Had to swallow my pride and radio the CG. "I'm not in danger, but you're going to get some calls to say that there's a yacht aground on Fiddle Reef". No damage, but face covered in egg. Inshore lifeboat came to have a look, and crew had difficulty keeping straight faces.

    In both cases, if I'd had no motor, I couldn't have got myself into those situations. I'd have had to navigate more conservatively and cautiously.
  • 24 Apr 2017 08:26
    Quote
    Reply # 4771691 on 4770153
    Deleted user
    David Webb wrote:

     One other thing is that outboard motors with carburetor's should be run dry when stopping them, if being left for more than a couple of days, as residual deposits in the carburetor can cause starting and running problems. If they are run dry this does not occur.

    David Webb.

    We seem to be getting away from the main point of this thread which is whether to go with or without an engine. I think the consensus there seems to be that some form of engine can be quite a useful thing to have in certain situations and dependant on your cruising lifestyle and time constraints.

    I wanted to comment on Davids post above and also the later comments on outboards. I am a staunch defender of my Yamaha 9.9hp 4 stroke outboard, and other small 2 and 4 stroke motors. Being a bit of a farmer when I am not sailing or driving ferries I operate a lot of small engines: Quad bike, chainsaw, Scrub Cutter and various lawn mowers, being a mixture of 2 and 4 stroke engines. While the older points and condenser ignition technology motors used to give all sorts of starting and running problem,s these new motors with electronic ignition are the complete opposite and do not seem to have the same problems. I never let the carburetors run dry but never have any starting problems. I treat the 4 stroke 9.9hp Yamaha like an inboard engine and it always starts easily, even if left for a month or more. Similar for my 2 hp Yamaha 2 stroke dinghy outboard which I use only occasionally. I never let the carburetor run dry and it always starts easily. My 2 stroke chainsaw which is a German 'Solo' brand can go for a year of sitting in the workshop and then start very easily when I want to use it again despite having not drained the carburetor when stopping it, (Yes, I admit it, I am getting lazy in my old age and do not do as much physical work as I used to). I have found both the Yamaha motors a bit sensitive to 'old spark plugs' and if I do have any running problems I know it is time to change the plugs. For both motors this would be about every 18 months for the sort of usage I give them. Given that the spark plugs in my car are good for 100,000 km it seems there should be better spark technology available for small outboards. 

    So the point of this post is that if someone is looking for a 'minimal motor', a modern technology, high quality outboard engine can be a good way to go and these days they are very maintenance free.

    I live in the hope of finding a compact diesel powered outboard. I have found some which are produced in China and India but they look a bit 'third world'. No doubt ownership of one of them would be an interesting experience.

    Last modified: 24 Apr 2017 21:45 | Deleted user
  • 23 Apr 2017 19:05
    Quote
    Reply # 4770882 on 4762649
    Anonymous member

    Another thing about outboards, and motorbike engines as well, is that often, if the engine isn't used that much and doesn't start after a couple of pulls, it can be no harm just to pull the spark plug cap and lead off the spark plug and then just put it back on again without removing the plug.  Sometimes a little film or dampness can build up between the plug and the cap and prevent the spark from happening.  Handier and quicker than removing the plug.  If it still doesn't start, then it's time to take out the plug(s) and check for a spark.  

    It's worked a surprising amount of times for me and others in the club and saved having to dig out the tools and remove the plugs.  
  • 23 Apr 2017 08:45
    Quote
    Reply # 4770442 on 4762649
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Since safe starting of any aux. engine is a part of this thread, here is an experience that I made only a week ago.

    A friend down the street called me and asked for help because his outboard engine refused to start. On arrival, I found he had mounted it on a 3-legged stand with the leg in a drum of water. The motor was a quite new 6hp, 4-stroke Tohatsu, almost identical to mine (on Ingeborg), except that this had an inboard tank in addition to a connection to an external one.

    We opened the petrol valve and pulled the cord, but no sign of life. Off with the hood and out with the sparkplug. The sparkplug looked fine and produced a nice spark when testing it. Funny that, I thought after we had refitted it: That sparkplug should have been wet after all our pulling with the choke on. Then I had a look at the tank.  It was a flat, tall thing; right in front of the engine. It was about ¼ full, and then I noticed that the ‘waterline’ of the fuel was well below the carburettor. In other words, if the carburettor was dry when it was to be started, an awful lot of pulls would be needed until the internal pump had filled it up to let it start. We then just filled the tank right up and waited for twenty seconds before pulling the start-chord again. Then the engine started right away, and ran sweetly.

    Moral:
    If you have one of these 4-6hp outboards and mainly want to use the internal tank, check the position of it with respect to the carburettor. If it is like my friend’s Tohatsu, then keep it topped up to ensure a quick and easy cold start when you suddenly need it.

    Arne


    Last modified: 09 May 2017 22:20 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Apr 2017 00:29
    Quote
    Reply # 4770153 on 4762649
    Anonymous member

    Hi, 

    one thing to consider is that motors left unused for long periods of time very quickly become unreliable. They need running regularly (at least once a week in my opinion) for at least half an hour, preferably under load. If this is done then when needed they can be relied on to start and do the job they need to do. Otherwise I am in agreement with the comments by David Tyler and David Thatcher.

     One other thing is that outboard motors with carburetor's should be run dry when stopping them, if being left for more than a couple of days, as residual deposits in the carburetor can cause starting and running problems. If they are run dry this does not occur.

    David Webb.
  • 22 Apr 2017 21:42
    Quote
    Reply # 4769949 on 4768986
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:


    All in all, James, I think you'll be doing the right thing in keeping a motor that's in working order, ready to go, but in avoiding using it as much as possible. JR is so much handier in tight anchorages, that it's possible to avoid the use of the motor more than with bermudan rig. At the same time, we have to recognise that most marinas ban sailing in and out, and some harbours have tight fairways where sailing is forbidden.

    David Tyler has summed things up very nicely. A motor can be a very useful and 'safe' thing to have, but not too much motor. What I mean by this is that all of my yachts have had the minimum sized motor that can safely be used for the vessel. So I have never tried for a big fuel guzzling motor but rather have been happy with motors that give 5 knots under power in calm conditions, can assist in motor sailing situations, and allow me to get into marina and fuel berth, usually to fill up on water, and into and out of anchorages. I have been told by a number of people that Footprints needs a 'decent diesel engine', at least 30hp. But for me the 9.9hp outboard in the well is all the motor I need. It does the work required of it without being too intrusive.
  • 22 Apr 2017 14:34
    Quote
    Reply # 4769467 on 4768542
    Anonymous member
    James Lovett wrote:

     As Serenity already has a Bukh DV20 in good order, I will keep it serviced and ready for use during the immediate period following her conversion. 

    James


    My previous boat had a Bukh engine and I had very good support with spares and advice from the Bukh specialists TW Marine , which is not too far from you.  


    T W Marine

    The Marina, Station Road, Furness Vale, SK23 7QA, England

    Tel: 01663 745757
    Email: tech@twmarine.co.uk
  • 22 Apr 2017 10:50
    Quote
    Reply # 4769038 on 4766467
    Anonymous member
    Bryan Tuffnell wrote:An interesting thread, but to get back to the original question - would the consensus be that the answer is: no, it wouldn't? 

    In fact it would probably be safer because of the increased flexibilty of junk rig.
  • 22 Apr 2017 08:58
    Quote
    Reply # 4768986 on 4762649
    Anonymous member

    Thinking back over 16 years of sailing Tystie, The only time I was in serious danger of wrecking her was when I was single-handed, dragged the anchor and couldn't manage to be everywhere at once, doing everything at once. I couldn't be at the helm, getting her to weather against a fresh breeze, either by sail or under power, at the same time as being on the foredeck getting the anchor. As a direct result, I quickly installed an electric windlass with a switch back aft as well as one on the foredeck. Then I could motor gently into the wind, taking the strain off the cable, while electrically bringing in the cable. Now, I know it's possible to sail the anchor out, and be on the foredeck getting the cable in, while singlehanded, but I think it's a high-risk situation. Again, it's a question of having to be everywhere at once.

    Apart from that, I think that going engineless is possible, but that safety and convenience are two sides of the same coin, or perhaps merge together at the middle of the spectrum would be a better way to put it. Making it into that difficult anchorage before dark, avoiding a night hove-to offshore in moderate weather is convenient; making it into harbour in the calm before the storm arrives is safer, rather than more convenient.

    There were never any times when I was having difficulty sailing off a lee shore, and an engine was necessary for safety, though there were times when motor-sailing off a lee shore was quicker and more comfortable. There were times when a touch of motor was very convenient in getting through clapotis or windshadow, and it's difficult to say whether there was a higher proportion of safety or convenience in my judgement as I decided to turn the starter key.

    All in all, James, I think you'll be doing the right thing in keeping a motor that's in working order, ready to go, but in avoiding using it as much as possible. JR is so much handier in tight anchorages, that it's possible to avoid the use of the motor more than with bermudan rig. At the same time, we have to recognise that most marinas ban sailing in and out, and some harbours have tight fairways where sailing is forbidden.
  • 22 Apr 2017 07:12
    Quote
    Reply # 4768895 on 4768542
    Deleted user
    James Lovett wrote:

    First of all, thank you to all of you not only for so much response; but for so much intelligent response. This site is certainly unique in many ways.

    I have decided I will work through this is stages. As Serenity already has a Bukh DV20 in good order, I will keep it serviced and ready for use during the immediate period following her conversion. I can then get more familiar with the JR with a 'safety line', especially as I am based in the UK for the next couple of years. But I will attempt to ignore it and see how it works out. All going well I will remove it in the very near future.

    My drive is for a simplicity, low cost/maintenance, and a little guilty purism if I am honest, so the electric approach is sensible but probably not on the cards. I am very interested in what you wrote about an oversized sail Graham, so I will look into this further whilst designing the new rig.

    Very good points Annie and Arne - anchoring power and Yuloh power is something I did not consider. One day I will be older! This engine can indeed be hand started so it does allow me to simplify my electrics, which I am also always happy to do.

    True words Kurt!

    Again, it's a good day when I can connect with everything that has been posted; thank you all again.

    James

    James Hi

    This boat already has a bukh installed which is a good engine easy to work on and spares are available. keep it. you are in UK at the moment if your going to sail in the EU remember our rules there are going to change big time and there is a possibility that they will  get back at brexit by bringing in even more rules  safety etc which depending on the size of boat could be alternate forms of power as back up safety which would mean a new engine installation yours is grandfathered and will be left alone I think 

    its just something to consider. plus I know people have made books and films of their enginless sailing but trust me  to get out of somewhere fast an old bukh or sabb can not be beaten
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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