More Mast questions

  • 25 Jan 2016 12:13
    Reply # 3779933 on 3769200
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Malcolm,

    that safety factor makes sense to  me, in this case. For a real sailboat, meant for offshore work I would have wanted a mast with the breaking strength 3 times stronger than that of the boat's righting moment, but your safety factor will be ok for your use. A fine thing with unstayed masts is that they bend a lot before they break, so you get a warning that you should reef, and possibly build a stronger mast, next year. If you read my 2 stories  (here and here) about my dinghy Broremann, you will see photos of her (him, actually), with two different masts.

    Arne

    Last modified: 25 Jan 2016 12:17 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 25 Jan 2016 11:07
    Reply # 3779838 on 3769200

    Thanks Arne, It's good to have some independent confirmation.

    I think I am going to go for a 8-stave bird's-mouth timber mast (epoxy clad).

    So far I have drawn a 16.8sqM sail using H&M approach, but was planning to knit a cambered sail using your writings (thanks for those too).

    My only remaining question is the one asking "What "safety factor" I should be applying when translating from "righting moment" to mast breaking strength?". 

    So far the numbers I got out of the calculator give a righting moment of 1,111kpm and a breaking strength of about 2,000kpm - is that safe enough for normal (coastal/lake) use, or do I need to add in a bit more?


    Malcolm

  • 23 Jan 2016 11:34
    Reply # 3776724 on 3769200
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I have tested some of the elements in Oscar’s Junk Rig calculator against some of my masts and boats. Here is what I found:

    Hull Properties.
    This appeared to work well, with a plausible righting moment. However, this will vary with the ballast position and percentage, so remember to add a bit if heavily ballasted and subtract a bit if your boat is lightly ballasted (or with only inside ballast). I found the Displacement to LWL calculator handy  -  I have never used that parameter, but it makes sense.

    Spar-mass-strength.
    Appears to make sense. The only snag is that the sort of available aluminium alloy varies, and so does the strength. Is this calculation done with yield strength of 250MPa (250Newton/mm2)?

    Sail Properties
    I have only checked the Johanna type. It appears to be based on Johanna’s own sail, which has a quite low aspect ratio (AR) of only 1.87. Problem is that we often need to vary the aspect ratio quite a bit to get the sail area  and centre of effort (CE) right. That is why I have expanded the Johanna-sail into a whole family of “Johanna-style” master sails, with AR ranging from 1.80 to 2.25 (look up chapter 4 in The Cambered Panel Junk Rig  -  TCPJR).

    To make a quick estimation of a sail area (SA) on a Johanna-style sail, if you know the length of boom and battens, B, and the AR, I suggest you make use of this simple formula:

    Sail Area = 0.78 x AR x B2

    The result is generally well within 2.5% error. This is actually a combination of the formulas for SA and AR on page 6 of Chapter 3 of TCPJR.  In real life we often have to start the rig designing process with the boom to get the CE in the wanted place (CE is close to the middle of the boom on the Johanna-style sails). Then it is a question of trying different AR to see if we can get the wanted SA without ending with a super tall or supper low sail.

    Cheers,
    Arne

     

    Last modified: 23 Jan 2016 15:58 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 Jan 2016 22:14
    Reply # 3776098 on 3769200

    Oscar, that is BRILLIANT.... I accept you have no liability when I kill myself, but the numbers appear to make instance sense...

    I am guessing tapered masts (the ability to insert top diameter) is a work in progress, but for the purposes of my enquiry I guess that doesn't matter.

    Am I right in guessing that the difference between "righting moment" and "breaking strain" should be viewed as a "safety factor".... If so is there a recommended factor?

    Mal

  • 20 Jan 2016 23:35
    Reply # 3771625 on 3771570
    Malcolm Duckett wrote:

    Does anyone have a view as to how this translates into alloy masts?


    Hey Malcolm. A shortcut would be to play around with the Junk Rig Calculator. Create your mast first with the wooden parameters and check out the breaking strength (in kpm) it outputs. Then you can play around with different values for an aluminium mast, aiming for the same breaking strength.

    Disclaimer: If your mast breaks and you perish at sea I am not to be held responsible. I'm not an engineer, I just hacked that thing together during a a few evenings with formulas I found on the intarwebs.

    Regarding to your other question about whether aluminium is expensive; it depends. Tapered extrusions are hard to find. Straight tubes aren't and are generally good value compared to their wooden counterparts.

  • 20 Jan 2016 22:55
    Reply # 3771570 on 3769200

    Thanks Chris, I went back and read Arne's scantlings paper - I think it will help, just need to comprehend the maths to see if I get some sensible numbers... Does anyone have a view as to how this translates into alloy masts?



    Mal

  • 19 Jan 2016 23:32
    Reply # 3769210 on 3769200
    Anonymous

    Hi Malcolm

    That figure seems to be too large for your requirements. PJR is known to be pretty conservative in specifying mast scantlings - see Arne's chapter on the subject in his public domain files under 'Junk Information' in the menu. You could also look at our Mast database for examples of what others have used for solid & hollow timber and aluminium masts.

    Chris

  • 19 Jan 2016 23:13
    Message # 3769200

    Hi, let me first say I know almost nothing, and find myself on a steep learning curve, but I am wondering if "the panel" might have some input.

    I am building a 27ft Steam yacht - it's really a sea-going steam launch to which I have decided to fit a junk rig to add interest and get me home when the mechanical components fail to co-operate. I know this means that I am an outcast both in the Steam Boat Association and probably here too - but it was good enough for Brunel....

    My question is that my copy of Hasler and McLeod suggests that my 5.5m mast (above partners) carrying about 16-18sqM of sail needs to be about 18cm in diameter at the partners (7 inches). This seams rather big, given other discussions I have read. The book is talking about "hollowed out" wooden masts, whereas I was thinking about tapered birds-mouth construction.

    So I guess the questions are:

    1) is 18cm diameter right for a birdsmouth construction? (and what kind of wall thickness are we imagining)? - the hasler is at the workshop right now but I think it was talking of a wall thickness of 20% of the diameter,

    2) would alloy tube need be a similar size, if I went that way?

    3) would alloy save a lot of weight? 

    4) would alloy cost a fortune - the birds mouth seems only to require timber, epoxy and hard work....

    thanks for your thoughts...

    Mal

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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