my bruce roberts 45 spray

  • 18 Jan 2015 21:23
    Reply # 3203466 on 3173928

    Good evening Keith. Wow! Those are big sails compared to what I am used to. However the design and principle still stands so here goes.

    First, I don't know where you live or sail but will assume it is the USA. Wishbone battens are much more efficient for sailing upwind and giving drive on a broad reach than straight battens but the compromise is their width. Assuming your sail mounts on the usual port side of the mast I have done some quick sums. The point of max width of your main will be about 6'3" back from the luff. The same for your mizzen will be about 5'8" back. The actual widths at this point will be 5'3" and 4'9". This may well block the port side of your boat from forward access on that side while at anchor. If you can cope with that then I'll continue. 

    The battens are fixed centrally at the luff and leech to the batten. The sail actually holds the batten up. The battens merely give shape to the sail. Despite this unusually wide frame the battens will and do sit level and horizontal. When the wind presses the sail against the mast the battens sit flat. When the wind blows the rig away from the mast it still sits flat. I have worked my sums for a sail camber of 1:8. I assume yours is a heavy boat so it will need the drive. But this camber is only 1:8 at the boom. It gets progressively smaller as the battens rise up the mast and the top panel might be 1:15 or so. This is down to a simple triangle drawn from the boom width to the mast top for the 'lazy-jacks' or boom lifts. So in other words, if you design the width of the boom then apply the triangle you can measure the width of each upper batten. The reducing camber as you reef is exactly what you need in rising winds.

    Battens for a sail of those sizes will require larger sections than the ones I am using. I am no engineer but my 1"x1/2" rectangular aluminium tubes are good for up to 250/275 ft2. So yours should be at least 2"x1" tubes. The battens are not actually highly stressed. 

    Battens of this length will need some pre-bending to shape towards the luff only. The only alteration to the sail is the need to fit a cheap plastic grommet at the 30% sail point at each batten to allow the sail to slide across the batten-tie-rod. This is a S/S rod fitted through the side of one batten half, through the sail grommet then through the opposite batten half. The rods are drilled then fitted with S/S split pins. This balances the stress across both battens when on the wind.

    Your boat may well have traditional Junk Sheeting. I now use single line sheeting but with sails as large as yours you will need multiple blocks between the boom and the deck. I also use downhauls on the boom, batten 1 and batten 2 as coastal sailors like me rarely need to take more than two reefs.

    I hope this encourages you more and answers some questions. If not, write again.

    Paul




  • 18 Jan 2015 00:59
    Reply # 3203077 on 3173928
    Deleted user

    Hi Paul 

    I have read the article in issue 17. I think I need to give a better explanation of where I am so far and where I'm thinking of going. 

    As I have explained before I have next to no sailing experience however I am an engineer and I design and build innovative products. 

    My partner in crime on this rig design is a very experienced sailor, a surf boarding instructor and a fellow engineer. Unfortunately he has no junk rig knowledge.

    My thought process has changed several times since joining jra mainly due to the invaluable help given so freely here. My desire is based on a couple of conditions I consider to be given. Firstly I have two new flat sails beautifully made by Chris scanes. The main is 712sq ft with 7 battens intended and over 21ft wide at the boom and the foresail 510sq ft with 6 batten positions and 19ft wide at the boom. The second condition is my desire to use a battening system that creates the maximum shaping possible from flat sails.

    I have read so many articles and have been given lots of help and suggestions both here and from Robin Blane who designed the original sail plan for the chap I bought the boat from. Based on all of this information I still have a quandary, jointed battens vs hooped windsurf type battens or develop an innovation of my own. My original plan was to design a battening system that forced the sails into shape on either tack prior to being offered to the wind. While I accept this is a very ambitious step I can not seem to steer my thought process from the potential advantage.  All this said I would like to be sailing a proven system initially while I gain some of the valuable experience needed to develop a completely new system.

    If I add all this together I am convinced your batten style has to be the first type I build however from what I've read and the pictures I've seen I am struggling to see how I make them fit both the main and the foresail.

    I hope this hasn't been too drawn out.

    Keith 

  • 17 Jan 2015 00:21
    Reply # 3202512 on 3173928

    Hi Keith. I understand your problem in which case I have the perfect Plan B.

    25 years ago in JRA Newsletter 17, page 28 (my how time passes when you're enjoying yourself) I described wishbone battens that work with existing flat junk sails and improve the drive without losing anything of the junk rig. Next month in the Newsletter I have an updated version of that article. This might be the answer to your prayers.

    Yes I am happy for phone contact but email me initially as it gives me more time to consider your questions. My profile in the JRA should give you the details otherwise come back to me via this thread. Regards, Paul



  • 16 Jan 2015 00:23
    Reply # 3201538 on 3173928
    Deleted user

    Hi Paul 

    I have looked at the articles and really i am so impressed with your approach. My problem is I am hoping to use the brand  new sails that came with the boat. They are flat panel sails too big to mount behind the mast. That said you have helped me to believe i am certainly on the right thought process in trying to get real camber from  flat sails by forcing shape into the battens.

    Keith 

    PS would you by any chance be willing to give me a little time over the phone to help me expand my knowledge.

  • 15 Jan 2015 16:01
    Reply # 3201103 on 3173928

    Hi Keith. JRA magazines 63,64,65 and 66 contain all the details. The battens have the profile that the wind blows the sails into on each tack.

    I hope to upload a complete folio on the AeroJunk to the JRA in a couple of months.

    Cheers, Paul


  • 14 Jan 2015 21:54
    Reply # 3200421 on 3173928
    Deleted user

    Hi Paul

    I am new to the jra and I have looked but can't find any threads relating to aerojunk. Is there somewhere i can find pictures and description of how you've constructed your batten setup.

    Does your rig rely on wind to form it's shape or do your battens force the shape prior to pointing it to wind.

    Oh and thank you for your help.

    Keith 

  • 14 Jan 2015 21:15
    Reply # 3200372 on 3173928

    Hi Keith. Have a look at my AeroJunk. Once you have got your head round the fact I have wishbone battens instead of straight battens everything else will follow. I have all the advantages of the Bermudan rig with all the advantages of the junk rig. And their inherent efficiency means you don't need such a large sail area.

    Paul McKay

  • 14 Jan 2015 20:16
    Reply # 3200319 on 3173928
    Deleted user

    Hi Annie

    Things have developed a tad in the last few days and i am currently working on a method of using the battens to force a fixed shape into the sails obviously reversible on the opposite tack. Initially in the form used by a wind surfing right with tension forced into by batten length. I am also long term playing with the concept of batten shape created and adjustable using pneumatic rams controlled from the wheelhouse. 

    Keith 

  • 14 Jan 2015 02:43
    Reply # 3196781 on 3173928
    Good news about finding out more about your design!  It might be worth asking Chris Scanes how much it would cost to put camber in the sails: not many people have had trouble-free articulating battens.
  • 09 Jan 2015 21:06
    Reply # 3186997 on 3173928
    Deleted user

    Hi everyone 

    I'm considering myself very lucky to have found Robin blane who just so happens to have been involved in designing the rig for my boat.

    I can now confirm if have over 1200sqft of sailing area and will soon have full specs for the masts.

    My next challenge is to choose a method of battening that will give me maximum shaping from my flat panel sails.

    Keith 

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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