Trimming sails: bermuda vs junks

  • 17 Aug 2014 02:19
    Reply # 3075948 on 3070335
    Deleted user
    Thanks Paul, yes I get it with decreased camber as you reef so as if to trim a Bermuda sail to reduce camber. But as I understand it with Bermuda sails camber is adjusted to wind strength and angle of attack. Pehaps the constant jib to main ratio, along with the fixed slot relationship, compensates. Increase camber causes increase power but also increased drag. Seems a bit like a horsepower to torque graph for a gas engine, not your electric car motor. As speed goes up torque goes down or plateaus. Now what was this I read in the other thread? You can't afford a copy of the PBO magazine? How expensive are they there? I'm going out tomorrow to find the magazine and article. Well I ended up getting the PBO for nook on my galaxy note 8. The article was good but the race did have its imbalances. For me the comparison highlighted the pluses for the junk rig. Lets do this again with equal weigh boats , F3 with F5 gusts, around the island and back to the mooring.
    Last modified: 17 Aug 2014 23:52 | Deleted user
  • 15 Aug 2014 20:58
    Reply # 3075582 on 3070335

    Thanks Arne,  I was given an Albacore 15 without sails and most of mechanical bits so it is perfect to Junk rig.  I plan to go with your cambered design and Paul's Aerojunk.  After I found that site on trimming the sails I realized that junk sails don't seem to have the same ability to optimumly adapt to changing wind strength and direction.  When I said " one size fits all" I meant that camber shape was fixed for all wind conditions.  At first look I assumed the aerojunk sail was the perfect design.  But now I see it has its tradeoffs too. 

    Hi Cory, the usual prescription when designing a new junk sail is to make the area larger than the original as any junk can be reefed easily. Also the Centre of Effort (or Centre of Pressure) of the sail is higher up than a Bermudan. This alone will suggest an early reef.

    If you accept that then, particularly with a wishbone junk, you can make each panel with a reducing camber as you ascend from the boom to the yard. In this way, when the wind rises and it is time to reef, you will be left with increasingly flatter cambers and reduced drive. This is the equivalent of finely tuning a Bermudan sail. Except that it all happens automatically as you reef the sail. 

    With wishbone battens you already have reduced width for each upper batten (because of the geometry of the 'lazy-jacks') so even with a perfectly square sail-outline the sail becomes flatter and more suited to stronger winds the higher up the sail.

    With Miranda I find I can still get maximum hull speed and the ability to tack between 85 and 90 degrees in a F4 with one or two reefs. That's good enough for me so it depends what you are looking for.

    Regards, Paul



  • 14 Aug 2014 19:45
    Reply # 3074193 on 3070335
    Deleted user

    Thanks Edward,  I will try to find it here. 

  • 14 Aug 2014 10:32
    Reply # 3073702 on 3070335
    Deleted user

    Hi Corey,  your question is very timely.  British magazine 'Practical Boat Owner' September edition  2014 #BO578 has an article "Bermudan v. Junk" 4 pages (36 to 39) concerning my 'Amiina' and a conventional racing Splinter 'Whisper'.

  • 12 Aug 2014 14:45
    Reply # 3071590 on 3070335
    Deleted user

    Yes I wanted one just like the Oslo J.  Not to be found in the U.S.  The Albacore hull is only 240 pounds/ 190 kg.  I want to at least duplicate the downwind performance of the original sails. 

  • 12 Aug 2014 08:47
    Reply # 3071444 on 3070335
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Just remember that dropping a panel on a little JR like that can be done just as fast as  tuning the sail shape of a Bm rig. I used to have an 18' dinghy with a 10sqm JR, and that worked fine.

    Arne

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crdXqaNigzw

     

  • 12 Aug 2014 03:40
    Reply # 3071337 on 3070335
    Deleted user

    Thanks Arne,  I was given an Albacore 15 without sails and most of mechanical bits so it is perfect to Junk rig.  I plan to go with your cambered design and Paul's Aerojunk.  After I found that site on trimming the sails I realized that junk sails don't seem to have the same ability to optimumly adapt to changing wind strength and direction.  When I said " one size fits all" I meant that camber shape was fixed for all wind conditions.  At first look I assumed the aerojunk sail was the perfect design.  But now I see it has its tradeoffs too. 

  • 11 Aug 2014 09:29
    Reply # 3070377 on 3070335
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Corey,

    My conclusion after having sailed with junkrigs since 1990 is that there is not that big room for trimming the shape of the sails under way. The camber is fairly constant, except that I can adjust the twist a bit, which, to some degree, lets me adjust the camber in the top section when the sail is deeply reefed.

    My strategy is therefore to rig my boats with rather large sails, with the panels cut to a moderate camber of around 8%, and them “trim “ the rig by adjusting the sail area frequently. I also use the telltales actively and sometimes (upwind mostly, in some wind) sail with minimum angle of attack, while on a reach I may sheet in until we are close to stalling the sail.
    That’s the best I can do.

    Arne

    PS: As for "one size fit all"; no I generally design the sail area and the amount of camber to fit the displacement of a boat. Sails for boats which are heavy for their length are given more camber than sails for lighter boats.

     

    Last modified: 11 Aug 2014 09:34 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 11 Aug 2014 07:59
    Message # 3070335
    Deleted user

    So I found this wonderful site called ianshortsails.com.au/sail-trim/.  As a novice this explained much.  If I understand the general principles of the Bermuda rig its all about the ability to shape the sail to the most efficient shape for the conditions.  This seems to be very dependent on having a stayed mast. 

    Is all this trimming just squeezing extra ounces out of barrels of water?  If not then are junk rigs more of a one size fits all solution?  

    Thanks

    Corey

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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