Ingeborg, Arne's Marieholm IF

  • 07 Sep 2018 16:41
    Reply # 6658699 on 6656429
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Slieve wrote:

    Rigging list for Poppy.

    Spanned downhaul/ batten parrels. These are a magic ingredient. They were simpler than the drawings in my draft notes. They consisted of a line tied to the batten, run round the mast, over the batten and down through a nylon thimble, back up and over the lower batten, round the mast and tied to the lower batten. By keeping the loop down to the thimble very short the battens are held close to the mast even when the downhauls are loose, keeping the rig secure at all times.

    S.

    How many downhauls, in total, Slieve? More than my (lightly loaded) LHP and (optional) lower LHP or spanned downhaul? 
    My split rig's final running line tally is: sheet, halyard, YHP and 3 traditional spanned downhauls. Once in awhile I tug on a downhaul to get a batten moving when reefing. Not critical. Usually the movement of the boat unloads the batten-mast friction point and the batten falls. So really I could get by with only 3 running lines.


    I tryed the combined spanned downhaul/batten parrel idea but reverted back to the traditional spanned downhaul and (very) short batten parrels. Now I don't have to tend to downhauls except to unclamp when raising sail and take the slack out when reefing.


    I ended up tieing-off the YHP to a far aft location on the yard (like Arne) in order to gain leverage in rotating the leech clockwise...helps to remove creases.

    See the JPG. The sail sets fairly well.

    robert self

    PS jpg captions: left..F3 upwind; right...F1-F2

    2 files
    Last modified: 07 Sep 2018 16:57 | Deleted user
  • 06 Sep 2018 15:06
    Reply # 6656447 on 6656321
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David wrote:
    Arne,

    My point is that they seem to be proof against F-U without anything to hold the top down.

    I have halyard, sheet, YHP, LHP. A lower LHP is optional, as it is on H-M sails, but helps with keeping the luff taut when deep reefed. Again, it's something that inshore sailors may not need. Most of the time, it's redundant. A spanned downhaul is as good at doing that, and I may change back. 

    I agree, some camber in the panels helps to keep the leech from fluttering. That's one reason why I put some in, as well as hinges.

    David, it could be that I as an inshore sailor don't know so much about this, but I doubt it. You know, there is inshore and there is 'inshore'. The fjords I sail may be protected from the swell from the North Sea, so very few people get seasick here. Still, the fetch can soon reach 10 N-miles or more, which is enough to develop a nasty, steep chop, big enough to provoke quite wild, rhythmic hoppy-horsing, even in just F4-F5 winds. Still, I have never felt any need for lower LHP. When I had hinged battens in Malena’s flat sail, I kept the original LHP over three battens in addition to the new THP that I then added, but I can’t remember why. 

    I think the HK-parrels help the lower part of the cambered panel sail from sawing back and forth on the mast when pitching. The top section has already been locked in its position, and can go nowhere. In  addition, the luff from throat to tack is much shorter on Ingeborg's sail than on Weaverbird, only 4.86m versus 6.07m. In other words, there is much shorter length of luff to support, so I get away with the THP plus HKP.

    Btw, from the top of F5 (offshore or inshore), the three lowest panels will already be nesting quietly in the lazyjacks, so no need for any lower LHP then.

    I guess we end up with the same number of lines to tend. The new FUP line I have fitted may add a bit hassle, but I gladly live with that. It pays back in safely letting me rig that lovely, efficient, high-peaking, three-panel top section.

    Arne

    PS: As long as we both are happy with our rigs, there is no need to worry.



    Last modified: 06 Sep 2018 20:55 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 06 Sep 2018 14:48
    Reply # 6656429 on 6656400
    Slieve wrote:

    Rigging list for Poppy.

    Spanned downhaul/ batten parrels. These are a magic ingredient. They were simpler than the drawings in my draft notes. They consisted of a line tied to the batten, run round the mast, over the batten and down through a nylon thimble, back up and over the lower batten, round the mast and tied to the lower batten. By keeping the loop down to the thimble very short the battens are held close to the mast even when the downhauls are loose, keeping the rig secure at all times.

    S.

    How many downhauls, in total, Slieve? More than my (lightly loaded) LHP and (optional) lower LHP or spanned downhaul? 
  • 06 Sep 2018 14:20
    Reply # 6656400 on 3032430

    Rigging list for Poppy.

    Items in bold print necessary, and the rest were used in initial rigging and experimentation.

    Mast lift. Fitted first to help with setting up the rig and sailcatcher, and could have been removed when all was set up.

    Lazy Jacks and combined cover/ sail-catcher. Non-adjustable once set up.

    Halyard.

    Peaking parrel/halyard, talked about but never fitted nor felt necessary.

    Yard hauling parrel. But see below.

    Long yard parrel. One experiment not tried but planned was to replace the YHP by a combined downhaul/ yard parrel as on the battens.

    Long batten parrels. Fitted before the downhaul/ batten parrels invented and most were then disguarded. The bottom one (boom) left on (I think) but probably not necessary as sailcatcher was attached to the bottom batten (I think).

    Spanned downhaul/ batten parrels. These are a magic ingredient. They were simpler than the drawings in my draft notes. They consisted of a line tied to the batten, run round the mast, over the batten and down through a nylon thimble, back up and over the lower batten, round the mast and tied to the lower batten. By keeping the loop down to the thimble very short the battens are held close to the mast even when the downhauls are loose, keeping the rig secure at all times.

    Hong Kong parrel. Single one fitted towards the leech, tried and ignored as it was slack, and not really needed.

    Sheet. Copied from Arne's Johanna with double lower block and jamber, single upper block, and I think the rest were nylon thimbles.

    To make sail consisted of,

    1. Release all jambers.

    2. Raise sail to the required number of panels with halyard and jamb.

    3. Adjust YHP if less than 5 panels raised. If a combined yard parrel/ downhaul tried may not require this step.

    4. Remove slack, light tug and jamb the downhauls with no critical adjustment needed.

    5. Sheet in and go.

    Often it was a case of hoist full sail and sheet in and go.

    S.


  • 06 Sep 2018 13:43
    Reply # 6656321 on 6656161
    Arne wrote:

    David and Slieve,

    yes, I can imagine that junkrigs with flatter tops and shorter yards are less prone to fanning up than sails with the fan-topped H-M planforms. Still, they are not bullet-proof unless some positive device is used to hold the top down. Slieve has produced a very clever set of combined downhaul-batten parrels  which should take care of this.

    Ingeborg's sail (as Frk. Sørensen's) now makes use of a grand total of  five running lines, all lead to the cockpit. They are: Halyard, sheet, YHP, THP and the new FUP.

    Could I ask how many running lines you have on your rigs?

    Arne

    PS: I have now tied down the tackline (with that rubber snubber on) to act as a kicking strap. The everyday benefit of it is to keep the leech of the lowest panel taut, so there is no sign of it fluttering. The cambered panels are good in keeping the leech taut and flutter-free.

    Arne,

    My point is that they seem to be proof against F-U without anything to hold the top down. Yes, Slieve's downhauls would inhibit the battens from rising (so long as they are far enough aft on the battens, so only really applicable to split rigs),  but when I do a wild gybe, my battens rise but nothing goes wrong!

    I have halyard, sheet, YHP, LHP. A lower LHP is optional, as it is on H-M sails, but helps with keeping the luff taut when deep reefed. Again, it's something that inshore sailors may not need. Most of the time, it's redundant. A spanned downhaul is as good at doing that, and I may change back. 

    I agree, some camber in the panels helps to keep the leech from fluttering. That's one reason why I put some in, as well as hinges.

    Last modified: 06 Sep 2018 14:56 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Sep 2018 13:27
    Reply # 6656304 on 6656140
    Anonymous wrote:

    David, would it be childish of me to point out that your rig does need an adjustable LHP and apparently numerous stainless steel rings, some on lines tied to the batten aft of the mast, and on the spanned downhauls to prevent the halyard and the YHP to get around to the wrong side of the luff? And all this after making hinges.

    Perhaps not so KISS after all.

    S


    Yes, Slieve, it would be a little bit petty, and ill-informed, at least. All H-M sails need a running LHP. All  H-M sails, when reefing  while running downwind in a strong breeze, would benefit from the rings  I use to keep a slack halyard and YHP from misbehaving. If you don't go cruising in robust conditions offshore, then you probably don't need them.
    Last modified: 06 Sep 2018 14:14 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Sep 2018 10:59
    Reply # 6656161 on 3032430
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David and Slieve,

    yes, I can imagine that junkrigs with flatter tops and shorter yards are less prone to fanning up than sails with the fan-topped H-M planforms. Still, they are not bullet-proof unless some positive device is used to hold the top down. Slieve has produced a very clever set of combined downhaul-batten parrels  which should take care of this.

    Ingeborg's sail (as Frk. Sørensen's) now makes use of a grand total of  five running lines, all lead to the cockpit. They are: Halyard, sheet, YHP, THP and the new FUP.

    Could I ask how many running lines you have on your rigs?

    Arne

    PS: I have now tied down the tackline (with that rubber snubber on) to act as a kicking strap. The everyday benefit of it is to keep the leech of the lowest panel taut, so there is no sign of it fluttering. The cambered panels are good in keeping the leech taut and flutter-free.

    Last modified: 06 Sep 2018 13:13 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 06 Sep 2018 10:06
    Reply # 6656140 on 3032430

    David, would it be childish of me to point out that your rig does need an adjustable LHP and apparently numerous stainless steel rings, some on lines tied to the batten aft of the mast, and on the spanned downhauls to prevent the halyard and the YHP to get around to the wrong side of the luff? And all this after making hinges.

    Perhaps not so KISS after all.

    S


    Last modified: 06 Sep 2018 10:08 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Sep 2018 08:55
    Reply # 6656063 on 6125906
    Arne wrote:

    A final thing: The FUP line now works fine without getting jammed as the sail is furled. Still, on a sail with heavier battens, I can see Graham’s point in having a two-part FUP, to minimise friction.

    Arne

    Can I just whisper that the weaverbird planform doesn't appear to need a F-U Preventer under any conditions, probably because of the shape of the upper panels? A complication neatly side-stepped.
    KISS.
  • 12 Aug 2018 22:04
    Reply # 6527938 on 6527385
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Scott wrote:

    It may be the angle of the photos, but I can't see how that is holding the mast down.  It looks as if the lashings are almost parallel to the step.   I get that how that will keep it from turning, but isn't there enough play to allow the mast to work its way upward?

    Yes, it has a bit to do with the photo angle. The angle of the lashing strings was between 30 and 45 degrees. With the taut Dyneema lines, there is no chance the mast will jump out of the step. I did it this way to prevent the mast from rotating in its step.Arne


    Last modified: 12 Aug 2018 22:05 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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