Junk sail types comparison

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  • 30 Apr 2014 22:28
    Reply # 1545607 on 1542712
    Deleted user
    Hi Paul. Corey is a member - only members can post...
  • 28 Apr 2014 00:17
    Reply # 1544049 on 1542712
    Hello again Corey. I can answer you here because we are now discussing my AeroJunk. If you are a JRA member you can download the last 3 Newsletters where you can read my 8000+ words on the subject. You can also look up my email address and contact me when I will send you 3 hi-res photos of my latest easy-to-make wishbones.
    If you are not a member then I urge you to join NOW. The subscription is cheap in any currency and a bargain when you discover the wealth of info available.
    Two final comments. I had my first sail of the season last week in a force 2 wind. It later rose to force 3. As I wanted an easy time I took a reef. On my way back to the marina I clocked 5.8 knots. So my AeroJunk is not only easy to use, it is very efficient. I am yet to be convinced that ANY Wing-Sail design is better than any other well designed sail-plan, whether the AeroJunk, Split Junk, Panelled Sail Junk or Bermudan rig. Cheers, Paul
  • 27 Apr 2014 23:09
    Reply # 1544028 on 1542712
    Deleted user
    Corey, I see David has continued the wingsail discussion in the Wingsail Forum. I think most members would appreciate any further comments on wingsails being there. Let's keep this thread for junk sails, whatever their type/style. Thanks.

    There are several threads comparing junk styles in this forum and also in the Technical Forum. Would members please try to look for and re-start existing threads rather than simply start or join in new ones. Makes the site easier to use in the long term!

    Webmaster
    Last modified: 27 Apr 2014 23:14 | Deleted user
  • 27 Apr 2014 05:10
    Reply # 1543870 on 1543826
    Deleted user
    Paul McKay wrote:Hi Corey, my AeroJunk sail is built using wishbone battens. My present sail area is 19.5m2 (210 ft 2)  The battens are made from 1"x1/2" rectangular section aluminium tubes. They are spaced apart by an 8mm S/S rod that is socketed into holes drilled in the inside face of the battens. They are held together by 8mm rope tensioned with a 6.7mm cable tie (50lb pull). The fronts are held together by 32mm corrugated PVC tubing with a single rivet on each side. The aft ends are held together with cable ties through holes drilled right through each batten. 
    These have proved strong enough for the boat to suffer a complete knockdown in a nasty squall. The tubes are available in 5m lengths. If bought more than 10 at a time they cost me this year (2014) £9.00 each plus vat. Bought singly they are £20 each plus vat from aluminium stockholders.Cheers, Paul McKay
    Thanks Paul,  when I first started looking at junk rigs yours just didn't make sense and so for the time being I skipped over it.  Now it seems quite sensible.  I found the thread from last year when you brought your rig to fruition.  Although my Newtonian physics is real rusty it intuitively seems that the stresses applied in this manner  to wishbones would create less focal compressive force and be distributed more evenly allowing the use of lighter and less robust materials.   Do you have any HD pics of your wishbones and sheeting?  Photos here are too pixelated. Did you do a write up in a newsletter? 
  • 27 Apr 2014 00:49
    Reply # 1543826 on 1542712
    Hi Corey, my AeroJunk sail is built using wishbone battens. My present sail area is 19.5m2 (210 ft 2)  The battens are made from 1"x1/2" rectangular section aluminium tubes. They are spaced apart by an 8mm S/S rod that is socketed into holes drilled in the inside face of the battens. They are held together by 8mm rope tensioned with a 6.7mm cable tie (50lb pull). The fronts are held together by 32mm corrugated PVC tubing with a single rivet on each side. The aft ends are held together with cable ties through holes drilled right through each batten. 
    These have proved strong enough for the boat to suffer a complete knockdown in a nasty squall. The tubes are available in 5m lengths. If bought more than 10 at a time they cost me this year (2014) £9.00 each plus vat. Bought singly they are £20 each plus vat from aluminium stockholders.Cheers, Paul McKay
  • 26 Apr 2014 05:04
    Reply # 1543630 on 1542712
    Deleted user
    This is all very interesting.  I found the Skye Wing site.  http://www.qei.co.uk/rigbenefits.html.  A unique hybrid.   Looks like a winged junk sail on an unstayed mast with a sandwhich boom. 

    At this time are the only short commings, expense aside,  building strong and reliable wishbone battens for larger sails?  How about smaller sails around 100 square feet?  Can these size wishbones be successfully built from off the shelf components?  From what I can find the 30 foot Wharram Pha did well with wooden wishbones.  They don't even look laminated.  
  • 25 Apr 2014 04:40
    Reply # 1543211 on 1543137
    Corey Lees wrote:Thanks David,  somehow my last response got posted after your post.  For coastal and off shore sailing are there any down sides to your wing sails?  
    There aren't any downsides to the operation of the sail. In my previous wingsails, assembly took a long time, access inside the forward section was a little difficult, there were strength and fatigue issues with the alloy battens. Since then, I've been thinking long and hard about the design, and I believe I have answers to all the problems that showed themselves before. The biggest downside is that making the battens is for someone with a fair amount of workshop skill and experience. It isn't a simple matter of cutting a tube to length, as with a pure junk rig. The nose section has to be made from carbon braided sleeve on a foam core, to save weight on a big rig, though it could be bent from alloy tube, or laminated from wood for a small rig. The hinge component that joins the nose to the after straight batten is  a moulding that has needed a rather difficult mould tool to be made, in its present design, though again, there could be other ways to make it. The after batten, at least, is a straight tube.

    I'm not quite ready to reveal all, but it won't be too long before I can post some photos.
  • 24 Apr 2014 23:39
    Reply # 1543137 on 1542712
    Deleted user
    Thanks David,  somehow my last response got posted after your post.  For coastal and off shore sailing are there any down sides to your wing sails?  

    Arne,  thanks again for all your articles and write-ups.  I think I have read almost all of them.  At this time the making of a sail in a limited space is a real plus.  
    Last modified: 24 Apr 2014 23:47 | Deleted user
  • 24 Apr 2014 15:22
    Reply # 1542866 on 1542712
    Deleted user
    Thank you all,  I'm getting the feeling that the benefits gained by cambered panels outweigh the negatives cited in the flat panel article.  Those that have converted to cambered panel, or sailed with others on flat panel rigs, find themselves saying " I wish my cambered panel sail could do that"?  Would anyone consider reverting back to flat panel?

    Do any of the pros and cons of one sail design change if that sail design is applied to a mast in each hull catamaran? 

    Anyone with experience on wing sail design?  They seem significantly more complex which usually means less reliable.  

  • 24 Apr 2014 15:02
    Reply # 1542851 on 1542712
    Corey,
    Since the '70s, I've sailed with every known design of junk sail, and also a number of different wingsails. My first sail under junk rig was aboard Pilmer, with a flat HM sail.

    My Sadler 25 Lliutro had two different wingsails, rigged with all kinds of batten experiments. Ivory Gull has a combination of hinged battens and cambered panels. Tystie has had three different junk sails, all with cambered panels with varying amounts of camber; and wingsails with two different sets of battens.

    From the perspective that that experience has given me, I could now only ever recommend flat sails to a sailor with a very laid-back, relaxed style of sailing, who was about to go for a trade wind circumnavigation. For inshore sailing for leisure and pleasure, quite a lot of camber is the way to go - say 8 -10%. The further offshore you go, the less the camber that is necessary, but I feel that there should always be some camber - say 4 - 6%. More camber means a bit more work to do in setting the sail, but  more rewarding performance.  

    Junk-derived wingsails, made the way I design them, are actually easier to sail with than pure junk sails, having no yard hauling parrel, and ideally no luff hauling parrel. I'm in the process of making a new single wingsail for Tystie, and I can tell you from current experience that it takes a very great deal of work to make one. So that's a trade-off: more work up front in the building, better performance and easier sailing later on. 

    I've decided that I much prefer the approach of having a flat-cut sail and some form of articulating or shaped battens that put in the camber, over cambered panels in the sail and straight battens; but that's a personal choice. 
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