Promoting / Raising Awareness of the Junk Rig

  • 29 Mar 2014 03:16
    Reply # 1527317 on 1523185
    Deleted user
    Ok folks, 

    Thank you for being patient and explaining things to the new guy, but lets have you all back on-topic please, which is:

    Promoting / Raising Awareness of the Junk Rig

    El Moderata

    So you heard the Webmeister had flu and thought you'd get away with it?
    No chance.
    Last modified: 29 Mar 2014 03:21 | Deleted user
  • 29 Mar 2014 02:25
    Reply # 1527301 on 1523185
    Deleted user
    Hi John.
    I think the Yahoo forum is still good, I think Arne still patrols it and can't get a much higher authority than that. So I'm a little curious about why you would pay good money here....
    As for the JRA, it was always a club in the old fashioned sense (non internet) , members paid to join. Only it was a closed to UK residents only, (at least those who could organise a pound sterling bank cheque..). I was eager to join it, lucky I did, most the historical information stored on the yahoo site (a directory dump!), was just that, out of date!
    Interesting you referenced a few regular free sites (boat design etc). The problem with them is that they are a free for all opinion posting nightmare. If boat design was paid only, it will be quite a different site. My brother, when he was a cricket fanatic (ew!), joined a paid cricket forum, the quality of discourse was immeasurably better. Amazing what the filter of a small fee does. 

    But if the yahoo site is dying, aren't you accelerating that process by joining here? Regardless, if you posed question on yahoojunkrig, I bet you will get very constructive responses.

    ps. I didn't get the "promote" thing either. Couldn't care less if no one else sailed junks around here.
  • 29 Mar 2014 00:45
    Reply # 1527265 on 1523185
    Deleted user
    I'm sorry if I insulted the members of this forum. That was absolutely not my intention.

    Yes, I know it takes money to run a website.
    Yes, $11.78 is a trivial amount of money.
    Yes, all the resources on this site are very helpful.
    Yes, it is nice to talk to experienced junkies.

    No, neither advertisement nor spybots bother me, as I use free software to block them.
    No, I don't need to look at member profiles to figure out who knows what. Before I joined I already knew who Paul, Slieve, Arne, David, Annie, Pete, and many others were. Moreover, I've communicated with each of you in the past, either on the Yahoo junkrig site, or on the BoatDesign site, or by personal email, whether you remember me or not.

    One of the unfortunate limitations of text-based communication is that irony doesn't convey well. My questions were rhetorical. I was really trying to respond to the thread's question, which was "Promoting / Raising Awareness of the Junk Rig". I suspect many of the active junk rig owners of the world are already members of the JRA. But apparently some of you would like more people to become interested in junk rigs. Based on the fact that the Yahoo junkrig site use to have quite a bit of activity, which fell off about the time that this forum was started, and based on my limited perception that the JRA site has substantially less activity, I was suggesting a possible reason and solution to this unfortunate situation.

    If my analysis is correct, that charging even a modest sum of money to participate in this forum is an unduly high barrier to those who might, initially, be only casually interested in the JRA and junkrigs, let me point out a few private boat-related web sites that have free forums.

    Qajaq USA
    http://www.qajaqusa.org/
    They also have a free newsletter

    I don't know exactly how they pay for it. Maybe they have a rich sponsor? Maybe kayaks have a more universal appeal than junk rigs, so there are more people who join, which helps share the financial burden? I know that you can become a dues-paying member.

    boatdesign.net is another private website with a lot of activity, which has a free forum (and a modest amount of advertisement). I'm sure many of you already know about it, as it was mentioned earlier in this thread.

    And of course cruisersforum.com, which has an obnoxious amount of advertisement. And sailnet.com. And many other Yahoo and Google groups.

    If my suggestions to this thread's question don't seem sound, well then thanks for hearing me out, and thank you all for your generous sharing. With your permission I would appreciate continuing to be a member of this group. I've already received $11.78 worth of value.

    John



  • 28 Mar 2014 22:24
    Reply # 1527232 on 1523185
    Hello, John, and welcome to the JRA.  Now that you are a member, maybe you should use our 'dating service' and see if you can go for a sail on a junk-rigged boat in your area.  Unfortunately, I can't suggest anyone near to you because you only say you live in USA.  A big place!

    Perhaps I can explain a little more about us.

    There is a vast amount of information on the website available to non members, which is in itself, a good way of communicating with those who are superficially interested in junk rig.  Joining the JRA, however, gives access to other resources, not the least of which is the ability to pick the brains of experienced junkies.  Obviously, you've worked this out for yourself!

    You're not required to fill in the information on your profile, but the main reason behind it is in order to provide useful facts about your boat for other members, who may be contemplating converting a similar-sized boat, or have a  similar boat with JR, that has some issues.  As in most Associations, there is an assumption that people would like to communicate with one another, and for this reason we usually supply a few details to expedite this aspect of the JRA.  There are, however, several levels of privacy and you can offer as much or as little information as you want.  (I see you have chosen to keep very private.)  However, the JRA can only flourish if people give, as well as take.

    The Yahoo site, to the best of my knowledge and belief, does not produce a 64-page magazine every 4 months.  I think most members would reckon that this alone is worth the $11.78 of your currency.  I think you will find the JRA is rather more than a discussion group: if you explore the website thoroughly I am sure you will find a whole heap of resources that could be of use to you.  Having been involved with junk rig for a long time, I can tell you that I would have appreciated having a 'one stop shop' for information many times in the past.

    The website is not free and needs to be paid for.  Part of your $11.78 goes towards this.  We also encourage our members to take part in the AGM and the 'voting papers' also need to be paid for.


    We have members doing research work, acquiring historical information and compiling data about what works and doesn't work with junk rig.  Sometimes these projects require money to be spent and the Committee feels that in order to encourage people to Join In, it is good that they know they don't have to end up out of pocket.  So some funds will go here.

    Most of the members of the JRA, particularly those who post, are people who sail junk rig.  Thus the value of the technical information is usually backed up with 'hands-on' experience.

    Several people who have decided to convert their boat to junk rig have had an extraordinary amount of assistance from members of the JRA, who have done everything from designing a rig for them to holding their hand through the sewing process, suggesting methods and wrinkles to simplify their task. 

    It's great that you've joined.  I hope you feel you get your money's worth from this' fine little private club'.  I think you'll find that you will be able to obtain a huge amount of information, help and comradeship here, and when all's said and done, it's only for the cost of a couple of beers.

    However, if you feel that the JRA is not for you, it is very easy to cancel your membership.  I'm sorry that you feel that doing so is an imposition, but our volunteer membership secretary has a lot to do, and chasing up people who decide to leave but don't bother to tell her is more than should be expected of her.  But I hope that the situation won't arise!


  • 28 Mar 2014 22:14
    Reply # 1527222 on 1523185
    Hi John,

    The quick answer to your question is that to run a private website costs money. Wild Apricot the company that hosts this website and supplies the software is not in the charity business. The membership fee is calculated to cover the costs of this website and the cost of the magazine (for those who take that option).

    Did you notice that there are no advertisements on the site? That there are no spambots/web becons tracking your every movement? That not even Google is allowed to crawl the non public parts of the website? That we are not trying to sell you anything? That you can go lookup a members profile and check if that member has the experience and background to backup what he/she may be saying? So that you can judge the quality of the advice/statements made.

    Nobody has forced you to join the JRA (as far as I am aware) you can stick with the Yahoo forum if you like, nobody here will force you to do otherwise. However if you want informed considered advice or information that is backed by experience and by people who are out there actually sailing and walking the talk (rather than just talking the walk). Then you have come to the right place.

    Any member of the public can read our General Forum and even our Technical Forum and they may possibly find out all they want to know. However if they want to ask questions or request advice, then they have to join the JRA and contribute towards the costs of making this website and the JRA possible.

    If you are really going to do a conversion or commit to buying a junk rigged boat, then the $12.00 odd that you spend to join the JRA and avail yourself of it's resources, is nothing in comparison to what you may potentially save by not making the wrong decision or not doing something incorrectly in the first place.

    Over and above the technical aspects, joining the JRA avails you the friendship and the camaraderie of a like minded community, a  community made up by some of the most respected names in the junk rig world.

    If the above benefits are not worthwhile to you, please resign from this association immediately, I'm sure that if you have only just joined, our membership secretary will be very glad to refund your membership fee (but only if you have never downloaded any of our magazines).

    Having said the above, presumably you did decide that joining the JRA is worth it. If that is the case, hopefully you now understand why there is a fee. I'm quite sure that you are bright enough to figure that the Yahoo Groups program is not free (nor is ymail.com free), they are just after something other than your money (directly). If you have not realized that yet, maybe you should read Yahoo's Terms & Conditions.


    BTW: Moderator, this needs its own thread
    [Moderator: spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and I'm not sure it warrants a thread of its own]
    Last modified: 29 Mar 2014 02:23 | Deleted user
  • 28 Mar 2014 21:57
    Reply # 1527210 on 1527166
    Deleted user
    Hello John, you are very welcome.

    Nothing is free. The "free" internet age, insofar as it was ever free, is rapidly drawing to a close as the advertising that paid for most of it dries up. What will happen then, I wonder. 

    You are right, this is a very fine little club (completely advertisement-free unless you count a little self-promotion now and then). And clearly it's state of rude health reflects the fact that plenty of people consider it worth paying for.

    What persuaded you, I wonder, against your better judgment, it seems, to stump up the $11.78? I hope you will find in your answer the reason why it isn't "free", just damn good value!
  • 28 Mar 2014 20:44
    Reply # 1527166 on 1523185
    Deleted user
    Hello All,
    I am a new member to the JRA. I've never sailed on a junk-rigged sailboat, and am not an experienced sailor. But I've enjoyed following, learning and participating in the Yahoo junkrig site for a number of years.

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/junkrig/info

    If you look at the MESSAGE HISTORY block near the bottom of the page you will see that for a number of years most every month had over 100 posts, with one month having nearly 500 posts (July 2010). Over the last few years the volume has greatly tapered off, with there now often being only a few dozen posts per month.

    I've wondered why the decrease in traffic? I've thought perhaps it has to do with the general slowdown in the global economy, and with sailboats being an expensive hobby? But as far as I can tell at least a few sailing/cruising forums still have good volume of posters.

    Another possibility is that this JRA forum has attracted the active junk aficionados to its site, leaving few interested in the Yahoo forum. But since the JRA is well-known in the Yahoo group, why didn't all the Yahoo members transition over to the JRA forum?

    Speaking for myself, I found it somewhat off-putting, in this age of free "everything" on the Internet, to have to pay (gasp!) merely to join a discussion group. And when I finally did decide to plunk down the munificent sum of $11.78 for dues (Did you say annual dues? You mean I have to keep paying dues year after year, just to chat??? Yes-sir-ee-Bob, and not only that, but unless I opt out that charge will automatically be withdrawn from my account every year), I then found I had to answer question after question about myself, my sailing experience, and my boat, just to be able to learn a little about junks. Not very welcoming to an introverted newbie.

    My point is that it seems you folks have a fine little private club going here. Great members (I recognize a number from the Yahoo forum), good discussions, and helpful information (though the photo gallery is hard to navigate). But you've set up a high bar (in this "free" Internet age) that the casually interested has to leap over just to ask a question or two. My suggestion, if you want to attract more interest in junk rigs, is make this forum more open to the casually curious.

    rant-off
    John Hess
  • 28 Mar 2014 19:38
    Reply # 1527125 on 1526548
    Deleted user
    Brian Kerslake wrote:
    Karlis Kalnins wrote:The title of this thread reminds me of a question. I really liked the JRA stickers that David Tyler has on the cabinsides of Tystie. I think Lexia has a pair as well. I imagine they would do a fair amount of promoting when the moored boat is checked out by passers-by. Anyone know where I can get a pair of these stickers? They are not in the website junk shop.
    Karlis, the stickers were produced as a trial run and are stuck on a few boats to see how they survive. They were designed by David and printed as one-offs by Bruce Wells, if I remember correctly. The idea was to evaluate the longevity of this DIY job then either proceed in that way or consider having some made professionally. I guess the next Committee will consider moving this on, which would include taking such diverse views into account. That I hope sums up the discussion that we had about stickers I think on the CF forum or it may have been in emails. There was also some discussion of lapel badges, hats, tee-shirts, burgees etc.

    I don't know if such items would count as 'promotional' or 'raising awareness' issues. Annie and Arne can sort that one :-)
    Hi Karlis, and all you others,
    In the CF forum they were called JRA Decals ( see page 4, last post 11/3/13); in the Yacht Club Bar see Decal & Sticker design ( page 6, l.p.20/2/13).
    We publicised the Decal/Stickers in the mailing for the April 2013 AGM, both by letter and email.
    The deal was :- Send me a stamped addressed envelope, and I send you 1 x A4 sheet of Decals.
    I still have most unclaimed.  5 x Cream Sail; 5 xTan; 4 x Blue - all Black hull and 3/A4 sheet.
    Also larger 2/A4 sheet - 1 x Tan sail/Black Hull, and specifically suited to any Swedish member a larger 2/A4 - 1 x Blue sail/Yellow Hull.
    Send me your envelopes NOW, or I shall have to give them away at the AGM!!!
    By the way, despite being on the boat all last summer, and all this winter they are still looking good.
    Can send a photo if you want.
    Over to you
  • 27 Mar 2014 22:47
    Reply # 1526548 on 1525760
    Deleted user
    Karlis Kalnins wrote:The title of this thread reminds me of a question. I really liked the JRA stickers that David Tyler has on the cabinsides of Tystie. I think Lexia has a pair as well. I imagine they would do a fair amount of promoting when the moored boat is checked out by passers-by. Anyone know where I can get a pair of these stickers? They are not in the website junk shop.
    Karlis, the stickers were produced as a trial run and are stuck on a few boats to see how they survive. They were designed by David and printed as one-offs by Bruce Wells, if I remember correctly. The idea was to evaluate the longevity of this DIY job then either proceed in that way or consider having some made professionally. I guess the next Committee will consider moving this on, which would include taking such diverse views into account. That I hope sums up the discussion that we had about stickers I think on the CF forum or it may have been in emails. There was also some discussion of lapel badges, hats, tee-shirts, burgees etc.

    I don't know if such items would count as 'promotional' or 'raising awareness' issues. Annie and Arne can sort that one :-)
    Last modified: 27 Mar 2014 23:01 | Deleted user
  • 27 Mar 2014 21:43
    Reply # 1526502 on 1523185
    Considering that we have two people talking in their non-native language, I should be astonished if we don't occasionally get crossed wires.  And I don't think, in fact, that we have.  I think more what has happened is that Georg has used the word 'promote' as a short cut to saying 'getting junk rig better known'.  I am sure that he was thinking of how many people might be interested in small boat sailing if it weren't too physically demanding.

    Arne has picked up the word in the sense of 'persuade others as to its virtues' and, quite rightly, does not see that we are missionaries enlightening the sailing heathen.

    Perhaps the thread should be 'Raise Awareness About Junk Rigs'?

    And the answer as to how to do that, as Arne implies, is simply to take our own JRs out on the water and show people what fun they are to sail. 

    Which neatly takes us back to your idea of a great junk party in the Baltic, Georg.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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