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Hwui Shan - 5th Century Chinese voyager?

  • 17 Dec 2013 18:43
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    Reply # 1459891 on 1455707
    Anonymous member
    The Librarian of the Victoria Maritime Museum, who kindly scanned and emailed the "Canada's Chinese Columbus" article for me, thinks that we won't have any copyright issues if we circulate it amongst ourselves, for our own use only, so I have made it available here.
  • 17 Dec 2013 18:09
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    Reply # 1459856 on 1455707
    Deleted user
    David has sent the above interesting article on this voyage from The Beaver, a Canadian Historical magazine. If anyone's interested in all this, there's a rather long (820pp, and typically turgid as many Victorian no-fiction tends to be) account of it published in 1885 called "An Inglorious Columbus" by Edward P. Vining. Also, the book by Charles Leland called "Fusang: or the discovery of America by Chinese Buddhist monks in the fifth Century" (1875).

    I was pointed to these by other historians of this period, who generally do not hold them in high regard. Together they include translations of the original Chinese imperial court document on which all this is based, together with translations of the (mostly French and German) literature on it (for and against) since 1761. I have a digitised copy of each if anyone's interested, but they run to about 59MB each!

    This is all very fascinating but I am trying not to let it distract me from the meat of the History of the Western Rig.

    Edit: Sorry, just noticed David linked to one of these books above.
    Last modified: 17 Dec 2013 18:15 | Deleted user
  • 11 Dec 2013 19:07
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    Reply # 1456272 on 1455707
    Deleted user
    Yes, that boat is almost certainly later - and the clay model would have been a river boat and probably not sailed.

    Actually Needham seems more receptive to this idea than later historians. This is all clear as mud to me - and I suspect to most historians as well. Not surprising really, considering that it's the historical equivalent of saying what we can be certain about  concerning King Arthur.

    My gut feeling is that if they did it, it was probably on some kind of raft with square sails. Although Chinese coastal and river sailing craft were probably quite well-developed at that time, my reading tends to the conclusion that any sea-going wooden sailing craft around China at that time were foreign. There is evidence to contradict this view though....
  • 11 Dec 2013 18:25
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    Reply # 1456243 on 1455707
    Anonymous member
    Thanks, Chris. I should have thought to check what Louise Levathes had to say. She gives credence to the cultural evidence of a sudden influx of Buddhist/Hindu items into Mayan Mexico in the 5th century, though omits the evidence from flora and fauna, which is harder to prove. She quotes the official history of the Liang dynasty, which I find a more credible source than Sinbad, Brendan, Jason, Odysseus or any other seafarer's tales where the yarn-spinners have been at work. In her references, she refers to a translation of this history. I would say that Needham no longer represents modern Sinology, and take his dismissive remark with a pinch of salt.

    There were two Song Dynasties, 420 -479 CE and 960 - 1279 CE, but I don't know which one my model boat comes from. I do also have a photo of a clay model of a boat, dated to 3rd - 6th century, and I can well believe that the Chinese were as capable as the Irish of that period at constructing boats.

    When we go back as far as this, it becomes almost impossible to chip off the accretion of myth and legend to find the underlying  facts. At best, we might say that Hwui Shan 'could have, and quite possibly did' get himself across to Mayan Mexico. In contrast, by way of example, we can say that the Coastal Nations around here, the Tlingit, Haida, Kwakiutl and Coast Salish, 'could have, but probably didn't' voyage far and wide. Captain Voss in Tilikum demonstrated the seaworthiness of their large canoes, but they felt no need to proselytise, or to trade any further afield than with their immediate neighbours.
  • 11 Dec 2013 09:01
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    Reply # 1455900 on 1455707
    Deleted user
    David

    This account of the monks is quite well established in the literature - although far from universally accepted. Levathes' When China Ruled the Sea probably the most accessible account, p.40.

    These accounts by Chinese authors ar generally considered to be in the realm of legend, which of course doesn't mean they're untrue..

    Edit: song dynasty was much later, 960 to 1279

    Edit2: Having just referred to Part 1 of my history i see it is mentioned - pp 17-18. I refer to Needham, J. (1971) Science and Civilisation in China vol. IV part 3 pp. 540-542
    Last modified: 11 Dec 2013 12:11 | Deleted user
  • 11 Dec 2013 07:05
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    Reply # 1455854 on 1455707
    Anonymous member
    There's a strong parallel, of course, with St Brendan, who lived at about the same time as Hwui Shan; who is known to have voyaged around the UK; and who is widely believed to have voyaged across the Atlantic with a group of monks. A lot of myth has crept into the Brendan story, but perhaps rather less seems to have crept into the Hwui Shen story. So it's possible to believe that Hwui Shan could have voyaged from China to Mexico, in the fifth century. 

    Whether he did so under what we know as chinese rig is another matter. I took a photo in Hong Kong Maritime Museum of a model of a Song Dynasty boat (same era), and that had a square sail.
  • 11 Dec 2013 05:02
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    Reply # 1455803 on 1455707
    Anonymous member
    Looking into this further, there seems to be quite a lot of solid evidence. Hwui shan ( or Hui Shen) put in a written report, and Li-Yen, a seventh century Chinese historian, is well aware of his travels.

    The most readable source I can find up to now is "an Inglorious Columbus; or, Evidence that Hwui Shan and a party of Buddhist monks from Afghanistan discovered America in the fifth century, a.d." by Edward Payson Vining, - available for downloading in various formats from the official US archive:

    It's a pretty solid read, and so far, I haven't found any mention of the vessels used, but there seems to be a reasonably convincing argument that the five monks did in fact sail from China to Mexico by the coastal route.
  • 11 Dec 2013 01:58
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    Reply # 1455751 on 1455707
    Anonymous member
    What a fascinating find, David!  I'm astonished this story isn't better known and I'm pretty sure it wasn't mentioned in 1421, because such evidence is conspicuous by its absence in that volume. 

    Chris may have to rewrite his introduction, now!

    I think to most people, it would be no surprise to hear of the Chinese along the Western Seaboard: indeed, the only surprising thing is that there isn't more positive evidence of it.

    Deer pulling carts?  Llama probably, but horses?  I thought that they were thought to have been (re-)introduced by the Europeans.  There must be so much we don't know about Pre-Colombian America.
  • 11 Dec 2013 00:15
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    Message # 1455707
    Anonymous member
    I was in the Victoria Maritime Museum today, having another look at Trekka and Tilikum, when I spotted a reference in an exhibit's caption to "Canada's Chinese Columbus". I spent some time tracking this down, and found this:

    "Hwui Shan, an Afghan Buddhist priest who sailed with four Chinese monks on the "Great Eastern Sea" in A.D. 458, and returned to China an old man in the year 499 after a long voyage to Alaska and down the coast to Mexico. A look at the map indicates the route they recorded was not all that difficult: north east from China to Japan's most northerly island, further on the same course along the Kurile Islands to Kamchatka -- aided by the powerful Japanese Current and prevailing winds all the way. From there, they proceeded up the Aleutian Islands and following them to Alaska.

    Hwui Shan gave a full report on the people, their dress, laws, customs, and industry. His description of the flora and fauna of the southern lands he called "Fu Sang" could only indicate Mexico. His writings describe a people who had carts hauled by horses, cattle, and deer, upsetting earlier theories (still held out as true) that the Original People of the Americas did not know the wheel. Archaeological finds in Mexico are of obvious Oriental influence, including a figure of Buddha.

    On both sides of the Pacific, jade beads were placed in the mouth of the dead, and jade amulets were painted red cinnabar. There are sky-dragon motifs on Aztec temples. Whether they represent Asian influence in Mexico or Mexican influence in Asia is still to be determined. A number of archaeological finds in British Columbia indicate early visitors from Asia.

    Hwui Shan's description of the culture of the Original Peoples was similar to that of Columbus'. "The people of the land are of a merry nature, and rejoice when they have an abundance. . . Travelling visitors do not prepare food for their journeys, and they have the shelter of the (inhabitants' dwellings. They have no fortifications or walled cities." He expressed surprise that the people did not have military weapons, nor waged wars."

    I believe it comes from a Canadian magazine, "The Beaver", Spring 1983 issue. I've left a message for the librarian of the Museum to see if a copy is in their files. In the meantime, can anyone tell me if this article is referred to elsewhere? "1421", for example?

    Last modified: 11 Dec 2013 07:07 | Anonymous member
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