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Mast position

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  • 15 Oct 2026 00:49
    Reply # 13745199 on 13709997
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Andrew: Here is a repeat of Paul Th's diagram, if it didn't come through before.

    You ask "Is it too simplistic to say that a higher yard angle simply allows for more sail area behind the mast?". That's not really it. It is simply this - for a given length of mast, all other things being equal, the johanna sail will come out with more sail area than the low balance sail. It is a mistake that some people make with a low balance sail, to think they can haul the sail nearly to the top of the mast. You can't. With low yard angle, you need a a bit more halyard span, or the halyard angle gets too great. I know, I've tried it! Try drawing some pictures of both types, and limit the halyard angle to about ten degrees. You will see. If you want to match the sail area of a johanna sail, with the same chord length, the sjr needs a taller mast. 

    As an aside, when you make the mast don't be in a hurry to trim it. A bit too long is better than a bit too short, and you can always shorten it later, but its a bit more difficult later to make it longer. How do I know that?

    As for your other question:  "... if I get the mast slightly in the wrong place, can I compensate by changing the sail plan?" 

    I am not quite sure if you worded that the way you intended. A different sail plan (ie one with a different amount of balance) would probably affect the helm balance, so yes, you could compensate by changing the sail plan - but that would mean a new sail and possibly new battens - not really an option.

    If you mean "... if I get the mast in the wrong place can I compensate by adjusting the the position of the sail" that is something you should discuss with Arne. I believe his sails do allow a little bit of "mast balance" adjustment, ie move the sail just a little bit fore or aft, and that might compensate. A little bit of extra mast height also would allow you to move the sail back a little. But you need to discuss that with Arne.

    Another possible option is to rake the mast a little forward or aft. Some people like the look of a forward raking mast on a junk rig, and also the way the sail tends to wing outwards in very light wind, or calm, which is better than having it swing inwards. In choppy conditions, when the wind is light, the sail is said to "sleep" better that way. But raking the mast forward would only reduce weather helm at the expense of more lee helm in your case. Raking the mast aft on a junk rig is rarely done, and I have no idea about that.

    In addition, I have read reports that if the sail has fairly long parrels, you can temporarily sling the sail forward a bit or aft a bit, by adjusting a running parrel, in order to balance the helm on certain points of sail. You can get Arne to advise on that too. (This kind of flexibility - mast rake, and adjusting the sling of the sail, are options you don't have with a SJR, so I have never done it).


    To continue the discussion, in my humble opinion, I suggest you follow Arne's advice and don't over-think it.

    You won't get perfect balance at all times with any rig. On most boats, the best you can achieve is a good compromise, light weather helm is ideal, but too much is tiresome. Helm balance is affected not only by CE/CLR matters, which are a guideline at best. A lot of boats which are about right under normal conditions, develop severe weather helm when sailed at an angle of heel - by all accounts your boat is a bit in that category. Perhaps slight lee helm in very light airs is worth accepting in exchange for a lighter helm in heavy weather. 

    The amount of balance given to a sail can also affect the helm at times, in the following way:  even though the helm is about right when sailing close to the wind - a low balance single sail can cause the boat to become "hard mouthed" (excessive weather helm) when sailing down wind in heavy conditions, simply because nearly all the sail is out one side. This is one of the reasons why some people prefer a higher balance sail, which is less prone to that. A tall, narrow sail is less prone to that, too. 

    I think Arne has shown you a sail plan, based on his experience, with the mast perhaps a little further forward than ideal, but it keeps the mast clear of the forward cabin and the hatch. A little mizzen sail could compensate for any slight lee helm which might occur on some points of sail, but if you can accept a little bit of lee helm in light airs when going to windward, you might quite possibly find that the mizzen is mostly not a necessity. 

    (I would consider taking the mast down through that sloping cabin front, or partially - a somewhat more complicated a job in making suitable partners, but that is a matter you would need to assess. An easier hack, which might be rather fun, would be to have an easily demountable mizzen in a socket right next to the rudder post, and plonk a simple little free-standing sailing dingy rig there. You might find you don't need it most of the time, but it might be fun fooling around with in light weather, and the first reef might be to lift it out, roll it up and throw it back in the dinghy. It's in the category of "messing about with boats" if you like that sort of thing.)

    Two more thoughts - there is a lot written about modifying rudders for junk rigged boats if you find that helm command is not quite coping with the rig. It is often done. Again, Arne is your go-to person on that subject. The other thought is trim - if you have persistent lee helm you can sometimes cure that to an extent, by altering the trim of the boat a little, ie shifting some weight forward, and getting it a bit more down by the bow.

    All of the above are things you can fool around with later, if you are seeking perfection, you don't need to be over-thinking them now or you will never make a decision. My advice is follow the advice of Arne, and get back on the water - be reassured there are plenty of little mods you can apply afterwards, especially with that type of sail. (I am in the same age-class as Slieve - I wouldn't discount his advice either. But I have no doubt a junk rig, even if not perfect, will extend the number of years you can enjoy sailing). But don't let too much thinking interfere with getting it done and getting back on the water. I say that with feeling - it is a mistake I made.)

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    Last modified: 15 Oct 2026 04:20 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Oct 2026 22:25
    Reply # 13745012 on 13709997
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Andrew,

    here is how I presented four versions of the Johanna-style sails:

    • The lower the yard angle, the bigger the mast balance you get for the same halyard angles...

    ..and...

    • the lower the yard angle, the taller mast will be needed to get the same sail area.


    (full size diagrams at Arne's sketches, section 6-46)

  • 14 Oct 2026 20:41
    Reply # 13744868 on 13743713
    Paul Th once gave us a diagram which shows that relationship between balance and yard angle, and here it is again. 


    Graeme, I'm afraid the sketch didn't come through.I think I understand the relationship. Is it too simplistic to say that a higher yard angle simply allows for more sail area behind the mast?

    Would you be kind enough to address my other question which was basically if I get the mast slightly in the wrong place, can I compensate by changing the sail plan?

    Thank you, I do appreciate all this attention.

  • 14 Oct 2026 20:34
    Reply # 13744857 on 13743125

    Still, now I have tested a yawl alternative on that Sabre. As you can see, that little 3.5sqm jigger will move the CE over two feet aft of the CE of the junk sail alone.
    Lots of work with that extra mizzen, but at least, installing the main mast will now be easy.

    (Full size diagram under Arne's sketches, section 9-24)


    Arne, that is a very interesting concept but I'm afraid it's not for me. I'm sure there must be a better way? Doesn't the original Johanna sketch work on its own?


  • 14 Oct 2026 20:31
    Reply # 13744852 on 13743943
    Therefore, until the bug  (feature ?)  causing "copy-paste" images to disappear is fixed, I would still recommend using the "attach file" method for posting images on the forum. 


    I used the "attach file" method in my last post and it didn't seem to work well. Don't know why.

  • 14 Oct 2026 12:25
    Reply # 13743943 on 13709997

    Hi everybody !

    I follow the posts debating the merits of different junk rig configurations with great interest and would gladly weigh in, but I would like to draw attention to another matter: my forays into the forum archives last winter revealed that many posts become completely useless when they contain images inserted via "Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V." 

    Such images vanish forever into the forum's depths, leaving behind empty frames; even if the author remains a JRA member, they likely won't remember what the images depicted after a while. 

    Therefore, until the bug  (feature ?)  causing "copy-paste" images to disappear is fixed, I would still recommend using the "attach file" method for posting images on the forum. 

    Of course, this is just my personal opinion.

    Regards- Jan

    Last modified: 14 Oct 2026 14:12 | Anonymous member
  • 14 Oct 2026 09:01
    Reply # 13743713 on 13709997
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    "... why the steep angle on the yard?"

    Andrew keeps asking interesting questions. The jaunty and dashing look of Arne’s high-peaked sail designs has a practical reason, as well as its good looks. Two practical reasons, actually.

    The first is the harmony between yard angle and mast balance (that is, the percentage of sail area ahead of the mast). There is quite an interesting relationship between the yard angle and the amount of balance given to a sail, that is, if we are considering “conventional” western junk sails, with conventional soft mast parrels and conventional halyard arrangements. (There are some exceptions). Again, it is a matter of geometry, and it is better to leave sail design to people with experience such as Arne, Slieve, Paul Th, David T etc and I will venture into this area only to answer the question from a merely geometric perspective.

    Paul Th once gave us a diagram which shows that relationship between balance and yard angle, and here it is again. 

    For a given mast height: the greater the balance, the lower the yard angle should be. The lower the balance, the greater the yard angle should be.

    Arne summed it up in a reverse way: it all comes down to what he calls “halyard angle”, that is, the angle made between the mast and the halyard (the line which runs from the masthead to the sling point, approximately half way along the yard). If the yard angle is wrong for the balance given to the sail, then the halyard angle will be too great. Why should the halyard angle matter? If it is too great, then the effort required to raise the last metre or two of sail will be much greater, seriously, and I know that from experience. Another issue will be (for a similar reason) that the sail will require more effort on the part of extra hauling parrels etc to get it to sit and set nicely. Harmonising sail balance (the amount of sail ahead of the mast) - and yard angle - in theory, because of simple geometry, should result in a better-behaved sail.

    You will note the low yard angle of the high balance SJR sail (at least, the beautifully behaved Amiina SJR created by Slieve). Not as pretty as the Johanna sail, but exceptionally well-behaved, (and the look is an acquired taste, if you ever get to try one).

    There are always exceptions. David Tyler’s Weaverbird wingsail has a moderately low yard angle and yet very low balance, but that sail follows a different set of rules and the sail does not rely on the usual soft mast parrels. Another rule-breaker is Steve Dawe’s dazzling Serenity sail.

    This has a very high halyard angle – but it has slippery, rigid mast parrels, and is thereby able to break a number of rules. In the upcoming magazine you will see some sails with horizontal yards – but they have different halyard arrangements.

    But the general rule, for most western type junk sails with soft mast parrels and a conventional halyard arrangement is: the higher the balance, the lower the yard angle and vice versa.

    The other reason: there may be some aerodynamic advantages in the low yard angle and my own preference is the high balance/low yard-angle Amiina type of sail because of certain behavioural characteristics, which can be argued. But the lower balance, high peaked sail has its advantages too – one of them being more sail area for a given mast height, and that's the other advantage of the Johanna sail type. At the end of the day, a cruising boat should carry the greatest sail area possible, combined with the simplest and quickest ability to reef. The high peaked Johanna sail gives the greatest amount of sail area, and being a junk sail, it is easy to reef too.

    (Arne, would you consider moving that mast back aft another six inches, and bolstering the cabin front in way of partners? Or, failing that, while it is still legal to dream, or imagine, what about having a little sailing dinghy as a tender, and when the dinghy is being towed or carried on deck, plonk its simple little free-standing mast into a socket right behind (or right beside) the rudder stock, and sheet its little mains'l to the stern quarters, try to do away with that boomkin. There wouldn't be much more than a day's work in that, using a second-hand Optimist rig or something even simpler.)

    Last modified: 14 Oct 2026 15:05 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Oct 2026 03:04
    Reply # 13743441 on 13709997
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Myself and Iain Blain met a nice chap in Milford Haven intending to renovate and convert a Sabre 27, so Andrew’s is not the only project that may benefit from this discussion 

  • 13 Oct 2026 23:00
    Reply # 13743125 on 13742667
    Anonymous wrote:

    The Plan B...

    No need to take shelter, Slieve, I agree with you 100%:

    Any project where boats are involved, takes twice the time.

    Upgrading an existing rig makes much sense to me for anyone over 70.


    The fastest conversion to JR that I did, was to Frøken Sørensen. I bought her in 2012 and hoisted the new sail in 2013. Converting Ingeborg’s rig took twice the time, from 2014 to 2016. She will be my last boat. I am more than happy that I finally squeezed in three outings in her in August, until the autumn set in.

    Now, it is still legal to dream...
    The Sabre 27’s profile is quite similar to my Alo 28, Johanna. Johanna even had a lee helm with her Bermudan rig, and her long trunk cabin forced me to design the sloop JR with 5.8m long battens. Her remaining lee helm in light winds was tolerable, and I would say she sailed very well (JRA Mag. 44, p.18).  However, her single broad sail caused quite some weather helm on a broad reach in a good breeze. As a possible plan B, I sketched in a little mizzen, but in the end, I found that for my use, the sloop was good enough.

    Still, now I have tested a yawl alternative on that Sabre. As you can see, that little 3.5sqm jigger will move the CE over two feet aft of the CE of the junk sail alone.
    Lots of work with that extra mizzen, but at least, installing the main mast will now be easy.

    Cheers from the safe position at my keyboard,
    Arne

    (Full size diagram under Arne's sketches, section 9-24)

    Arne, thank you very much. That's awesome.

    This drawing is as far as I got (sorry, can't seem to make it the right size) but my CE is lower than yours. I've probably got something wrong. I have a slightly bigger Genoa which may have done it.

    Unfortunately I haven't done enough sailing in Minerva (I only got her mid-summer) to know how the helm behaves in different conditions. I've only sailed with a cockpit full of people and children who know zero about sailing, let alone where to sit!

    As mentioned earlier, the thing that makes me really keen on this project is the idea of stepping a new mast from the old and unstepping the old mast from the new. That really is a game changer.

    I did ask Graeme but you're obviously the authority on this. Why the steep angle on the yard?

    The setting of the mast foot, getting the right rake and making the partners seems very final. Am I right in thinking that if the mast position isn't quite right the sail can be modified to correct it?

    I'm coming up to 75 now but I think the idea of modifying the existing rig, adding single or two line reefing, making a stackpack and bringing all lines back to the cockpit feels much more daunting than a junk conversion, and not nearly as exciting!

    Thanks.


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    Last modified: 13 Oct 2026 23:16 | Anonymous member
  • 13 Oct 2026 21:17
    Reply # 13742988 on 13742119
    Anonymous wrote:

    I've been trying to keep out of this thread on line, but perhaps I should make a couple of comments here. 

    Slieve, thank you for jumping in. And I did get the drawing, sorry for not responding sooner.

    To answer your point about the pros and cons of ageing and sailing, I have investigated the possibility of keeping my existing rig, especially with the sails and spars being in excellent condition. However, the task of bringing all the lines back to the cockpit would be no small project. I would need, as a minimum, blocks on the tabernacle, as the deck steps down quite a bit near the mast foot, there would be organisers on the deck, maybe a 4 and a 5, clutches and jammers and not least, a winch or two. I had single line reefing on my last boat and it just didn't work very well. As well as taking a long time, it would be expensive.

    I have the Easier Rigs book, which i believe was what attracted me to junk rigs in the first place.

    Whilst you have convinced me that the SJR is probably the rig with superior performance, the Johanna plan gives the best compromise in terms of mast siting, stronger hull, doesn't block the cabin entrance so much, there's a perfect little area right in front of the deck slope.

    If I'm doing this, I plan to get most of it done this winter, then spend the season playing with it. I'm very lucky that my winter storage is walking distance from the house and it is also an industrial shipyard so I might even be able to get the tubing through them. There are certainly lots of welders on site and although I myself have a TIG and MIG machine I'm not the best at it.

    Thanks again. I'll obviously keep you updated.


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