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Mast position

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  • 29 Oct 2026 20:45
    Reply # 13764087 on 13761724
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hi Andrew

    I understand from earlier posts that you have now found an acceptable position for your mast partners. I also used that location you are proposing as did Sunbird Marine which fitted a junk rig to a Sabre 27.

    Thank you Frank. Yes, I'm hoping the proposed mast position will be OK, however, it is quite a lot lower than the upper cabin roof and therefor the distance from mast step to partners is much shorter, especially as the hull is sloping up. So there will be much more leverage at the partners.
    In my mind, generally in a semi-concious state at 3 in the morning, I was hoping to use 7" from step to about a metre above the partners, then 4 metres of 6", with a 500mm overlap, then 4 metres of 5", with a 500mm overlap, then however much 4" is necessary, with a 500mm overlap. As David has done, 3D printed sleeves at the bottom of the overlap and 3D printed fairings at the top of the joints. I am pretty convinced that as the loads are compressive, nylon sleeves should be more than adequate. I am trying, again in my mind's eye to envisage a telescopic arrangement that can be demounted, but so far can't avoid the use of a very long ladder!
    The whole thrust of the design is to cut down stepping and unstepping costs, hopefully leaving the 7" tube glassed in place and somehow manoeuvering the top sections when needed.
    I have had a great quote for the 6,5 and 4 tubes but the 7 or 8" is astronomical  by comparison.
    I am stubbornly self reliant so, although buying a tapered lighting pole would seem the obvious route, I would rather do the construction myself, however scary.
    Thanks again.
    Andrew
  • 27 Oct 2026 17:51
    Reply # 13761724 on 13709997

    Hi Andrew

    I understand from earlier posts that you have now found an acceptable position for your mast partners. I also used that location you are proposing as did Sunbird Marine which fitted a junk rig to a Sabre 27.

     I note that you are considering building an aluminium mast to your Sabre 27. In my earlier posts I mentioned that the mast I fitted to my Sabre 27 was built by Hawk Marine Services ( previously Needlespar masts). It might be of assistance to you to know more about what they shared with me about the building process.

    My mast is 5.5" diameter at the partners as recommended by Sunbird Marine and tapers to 4.5" at the masthead. It is built of 3 sections of 6082A grade aluminium 1/4" wall thickness. This is in keeping with Needlespars design parameter to minimise the windage of the spar.

    Needlespar masts both stayed and unstayed, were very popular in the dinghy racing world some years ago because of their comparatively low windage due to the small section tubing used in their construction, which conferred  a significant advantage togther with their designed bending profile under load.

    The lower 5 meter section of my mast has an internal sleeve 2 meters long of 5" diameter x 1/4" wall to reinforce the area through the partners. The mid-section (3.5 meters x 5" x 1/4") is inserted into the lower section and pinned through the joint by an aluminium bar , the ends of which are beaten to form a domed surface to retain the bar in position. In effect the sections are held by a substantial aluminium rivet. The same construction is used to secure the upper section of the mast. This is 4.5" diameter with 1/4" wall thickness. The mast weighs about 90 kg.

    Hawk Marine Services (who now produce masts based on Needlespar's construction methods) explained that although in principle each section should just fit inside each other that in practice the extruded tubes are not perfectly circular and so do not fit together. To overcome this issue they turn down the section on a large lathe and then press the sections together using thickened epoxy as both a lubricant and an adhesive. I would expect it also filled any gaps between the tubes. The mast sections are also chamfered at the joints.

    I don't have details of the degree of overlap of the tube but for the aluminium battens I have used 3x the internal diameter as an overlap for joints in the battens. I had a length of solid bar turned down to use as a joint between lengths of batten to avoid piercing the batten to attach the batten parrells. I have had no issues to date with the battens failing at the joints.

    Prior to ordering my mast I calculated the safety factor for the proposed spar using Arnie's suggested method. This was published some years ago in the junk Rig magazine. Following this method gave a safety factor of around 2 which seems acceptable. I think the derived  safety factor is probably significantly larger given that the equations used are those relating to a cantilever beam with all the  load at the head of the mast. In reality the load would be distributed more evenly along the length of the mast although it would be higher at the masthead given the geometry of the junk rig sail which has significant area in the upper part of the rig in the event of a knock-down under full sail, but is such a thing likely?

    I have read of other methods of building freestanding aluminium masts. I understand that Roger Taylor (who fitted out Ming-Mig 2) used a spun aluminium lighting pole of much larger but thinner wall section but reinforced the lower part by cutting a longitudinal slot in a spare piece of the lower part of the pole. This made it possible to compress the tube and insert it to form an internal sleeve. Epoxy resin was used as a lubricant/adhesive. Calculations based on the above method show that the mast is of adequate strength. 

    Other junk rigged craft have according to their builders, used large diameter aluminium thin walled tubes in mast construction. I recall reading the account of the builder of Easy Go employing masts of this kind and this vessel successfully completed many open ocean voyages. The masts employed appeared to be too weak according to my calculations based on the cantilever beam equation but have proved otherwise. There do seem to be other factors involved in determining whether a mast is of adequate strength. 

    Best wishes, Frank


  • 21 Oct 2026 22:29
    Reply # 13756223 on 13756079
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    . I was thinking of Odyssey, at 217g/m2 it's probably about right.
    Antares' blue sail is Odyssey. It looked good initially, but photos taken a few years later under new ownership show that the fabric had deteriorated badly. The polyester cloth is coated on one side with polyurethane, which is where failure occurs Avoid Odyssey.
    Thanks Asmat, that's good to know. What would you recommend? You may have already said, I may have missed it.

    The prevalent choice seems to be a fabric called Weathermax. I don't know much about it. Professional junk rig sailmaker Sebastian Hentschel advocates it.

    My present boat and 3 previous ones all have or had sails made of sailcloth. I can't think of anything better. Try looking for Haywards Sunwing - I don't know if any remains in stock anywhere. It may be worth talking to English Seadog. They trade through ebay, but welcome direct enquiries.

  • 21 Oct 2026 20:24
    Reply # 13756097 on 13709997

    As far as the mast goes, I've had quotes for 4", 5", 6" and 7" aluminium tube.

    I'm planning to make a stepped taper and need a substantial lower third.

    The smaller ones are reasonable, at £133, £163, £190 for a 5m length, but the 7" is an astronomical £455, because it's a slightly thicker wall.

    Any ideas for the bottom section?

  • 21 Oct 2026 20:14
    Reply # 13756079 on 13755949
    Anonymous wrote:
    . I was thinking of Odyssey, at 217g/m2 it's probably about right.
    Antares' blue sail is Odyssey. It looked good initially, but photos taken a few years later under new ownership show that the fabric had deteriorated badly. The polyester cloth is coated on one side with polyurethane, which is where failure occurs Avoid Odyssey.
    Thanks Asmat, that's good to know. What would you recommend? You may have already said, I may have missed it.
  • 21 Oct 2026 16:52
    Reply # 13755949 on 13755724
    . I was thinking of Odyssey, at 217g/m2 it's probably about right.
    Antares' blue sail is Odyssey. It looked good initially, but photos taken a few years later under new ownership show that the fabric had deteriorated badly. The polyester cloth is coated on one side with polyurethane, which is where failure occurs Avoid Odyssey.
    1 file
    Last modified: 21 Oct 2026 17:33 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Oct 2026 11:14
    Reply # 13755724 on 13755131
    Anonymous wrote:

    Andrew,

    I have no experience with canting the sail forward or aft, when underway, so I guess we have to lean on Asmat's experience here. Now I've drawn another sloop JR. In its upright position its CE is about 100mm forward of that of the BR. To hedge my bet in case of lee helm is experienced, I have cut the mast quite tall so there will be room for hauling the sail aft, if needed.

    The standard Johanna sail, with its 10° boom rise, appears to be well suited for being canted forward. This can move its CE up to two feet forward. 
    Just follow Asmat's instructions and you will be fine.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Arne.

    PS: I am not sure if making the sail from an old spinnaker is so smart:

    • These are often made of Nylon which does not last that well.
    • The spinnaker is probably sewn into a 3-D shape. so is not that easy to loft into a JR.
    • I guess I would look for some polyester fabric between 200 and 250g/sqm.


    Arne, thank you for that. It looks excellent. Perfect mast position. I've noted Asmat's notes about moving the sail forward and aft. Can I ask, when doing that at the foot of the sail, does it mean that the luff is no longer parallel to the mast?

    I'll be doing most of the work on the mast step and partners on dry land so before she came out of the water I took a spirit level (sounds a bit bonkers, I know) and found it was remarkably stable and I got a pretty reasonable datum to work out how level she is sitting in the yard. I should be able to then work out what is vertical. It's quite scary, looking at your drawing, with the fulcrum down at deck level, there's a massive amount of leverage, something like 10:1. Are most of the forces at the partners side to side or fore and aft. I hope side to side, as the mast foot will be nestling in the V of the hull.

    Chatting to the boss of the yard the other day I found that they have a metal delivery from a nearby stockholders at least once a week so I might even be able to buy my aluminium tube without too much carriage charge, which has always been the killer.

    Thanks for the note about the spinnaker. It was just a thought, but I'll sell them and put the money towards new sailcloth. I have an account with Kayospruce so we get a 50% discount, which is nice. I was thinking of Odyssey, at 217g/m2 it's probably about right

    Thanks again.


  • 21 Oct 2026 10:53
    Reply # 13755711 on 13754718

    A line controlled from the cockpit ran from deck level to a block about 6ft along the boom, then forward around the mast and back to the becket on that block. An identical arrangement before the mast gave me perfect control. It also served as a downhaul to keep the luff straight.

    Another Kingfisher 26, Chopsticks, had a new sail with cambered panels made to replace her original flat sail. She was no longer as well mannered as before and now had such extreme weather helm her owner found her almost unmanageable. After learning about this and before launching Antares with her new rig, I fitted both her skeg and her rudder with end plates projecting about 5 inches. I don't know what effect this may have had, but she proved to be as well balanced as I could have wished.
    Thank you Asmat. Not quite sure I understand the arrangement of the lines you mention.  Wouldn't that mean the line was rubbing around the mast when hauling it in?
    I'm quite nervous about ending up with extreme weather helm.
    Did you find the self steering gear coped well? I have a brand new Pacific vane steering gear that came with the boat, which I haven't used yet but am hoping to.
    All in all £2,800 for the boat, which has a new 2 pot Yanmar (£6K) and £2K of steering gear, i think I got a bargain!
  • 20 Oct 2026 19:52
    Reply # 13755131 on 13709997
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Andrew,

    I have no experience with canting the sail forward or aft, when underway, so I guess we have to lean on Asmat's experience here. Now I've drawn another sloop JR. In its upright position its CE is about 100mm forward of that of the BR. To hedge my bet in case of lee helm is experienced, I have cut the mast quite tall so there will be room for hauling the sail aft, if needed.

    The standard Johanna sail, with its 10° boom rise, appears to be well suited for being canted forward. This can move its CE up to two feet forward. 
    Just follow Asmat's instructions and you will be fine.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Arne.

    PS: I am not sure if making the sail from an old spinnaker is so smart:

    • These are often made of Nylon which does not last that well.
    • The spinnaker is probably sewn into a 3-D shape. so is not that easy to loft into a JR.
    • I guess I would look for some polyester fabric between 200 and 250g/sqm.
    (full size diagram in Arne's sketches, section 9-27)

    Last modified: 20 Oct 2026 20:35 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Oct 2026 14:23
    Reply # 13754718 on 13754399
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    Andrew, I found a position just ahead of Kingfisher 26 Antares's coachroof worked well. That's where I'd put your mast. Junk rigged Kingfishers were sold with the mast stepped through the forward slope, with cast aluminium partners shaped to conform. Beken's photo shows the sail hauled forward to ease the helm on a broad reach. The broker's photo was taken while she was sold most recently.
    Thanks Asmat. That looks perfect. i don't like the idea of hacking into the sloping part of the cabin roof but there's a nice bit just ahead of that.
    How do you go about hauling the sail forward, and does that get rid of the weather helm completely?
    Hi Andrew, Antares had insignificant weather helm sailing to windward with the sail hauled aft, until she heeled beyond about 15°. Reefing away a single panel corrected this. Off the wind, I hauled the sail forward to give my home made self steering gear an easier run. 

    A line controlled from the cockpit ran from deck level to a block about 6ft along the boom, then forward around the mast and back to the becket on that block. An identical arrangement before the mast gave me perfect control. It also served as a downhaul to keep the luff straight.

    Another Kingfisher 26, Chopsticks, had a new sail with cambered panels made to replace her original flat sail. She was no longer as well mannered as before and now had such extreme weather helm her owner found her almost unmanageable. After learning about this and before launching Antares with her new rig, I fitted both her skeg and her rudder with end plates projecting about 5 inches. I don't know what effect this may have had, but she proved to be as well balanced as I could have wished.
    Last modified: 20 Oct 2026 14:58 | Anonymous member
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