Split or unsplit, that is the question

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  • 09 Dec 2019 21:20
    Reply # 8227686 on 8217505
    Graeme wrote:But the idea of a low AR “Arne sail” is still lurking in my mind. Here are the criteria: Its not a race boat, its an old man's retirement home. What a scow needs is POWER and it is no use seeking close-winded performance with this sort of vessel. In the old days you would say it needs a gaff rig, and a Bermudan rig would be no good. With a scow like this, sail area is more important than high aspect ratio. When going to windward you have to lay off a little and opt for a bit more speed, rather than pointing high. So with that in mind, which rig looks best to the experts? (The SJR looks better to me, now, because I have got used to it, learned a little bit about it and convinced myself. Oddly enough, ideal mast position favours the low AR Arne sail.).

    What say you?

    PS I can't help adding that the soft wing appeals to me as the absolute ultimate in junk rig development and potential and I would dearly love to go down that road. But I am daunted by my lack of the technical skills that are required in making the hardware.

    No question to be answered, in my opinion. The SJR and my wing sails are attempts to make modern cruiser/racers go as well to windward as possible, and that they do, quite well, but with differing characteristics though, the wing sails having a wider 'groove'. Neither is particularly suitable for a NZ scow to be used as a retirement home, with its need for a rig with characteristics more like those of gaff rig. If the ideal mast position suits a low AR Arne sail, then that could be the one to go for. Well cambered, of course. The only alternative, to my way of thinking, would be the sail that I've designed for Annie's Fanshi; again, the need is to power a rather buxom little boat, with low-stress handling that is meant to be suited to a skipper who is not quite so young as she used to be.
    Last modified: 09 Dec 2019 21:39 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Dec 2019 03:59
    Reply # 8220150 on 8218858
    Anonymous wrote:

    I just read Arne's "cocky writeup"

    That should be on this thread.

    Slieve's write up of the original Poppy rig was informative, exciting and persuasive. Now, for the same reasons, Arne has done a write-up which matches that of Slieve.

    Well done Arne, real food for thought. Hmmm.

    Anyone thinking of doing a conversion, and mulling over which way to go, should read both articles. Then you'll have real headache!


    No headache really. Both good rigs. (I do wonder about comparing based on mast height though ;)  )  Neither one compares itself to the other but rather to "other, ordinary" sail boats close at hand as well as flat cut junk of past experience. I think one or the other would be a good choice depending on the boat and compromises chosen. Converting a flat junk to cambered, I would choose one piece. Bermudan to junk? The SJR looks good.

    In all very hard to choose a clear winner but rather two great ways of improving over a flat sail. (and some would probably suggest flat is better too)

    A death in the family and the costs thereof have put my own plans off for a bit longer. I want to try them both ...

  • 09 Dec 2019 00:55
    Reply # 8218858 on 8217505
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I just read Arne's "cocky writeup"

    That should be on this thread.

    Slieve's write up of the original Poppy rig was informative, exciting and persuasive. Now, for the same reasons, Arne has done a write-up which matches that of Slieve.

    Well done Arne, real food for thought. Hmmm.

    Anyone thinking of doing a conversion, and mulling over which way to go, should read both articles. Then you'll have real headache!

    Last modified: 09 Dec 2019 00:58 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 Dec 2019 21:38
    Message # 8217505
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I think Arne’s three reasons for sticking with the un-split Johanna-style rig are valid. The SJR seems to require more work in the building, it has not yet been proved that SJR is better to windward, and the Johanna rig seems to pack a little more sail area and luff length per metre of mast height. Robert’s comments about high AR/ low AR are also worthy of thought. Another thing, at first looks, the lofty style of the high-peaked Johanna rig just looks so much more lovely than the rather brutally simple shape of the Amiina rig (though, when something works well we usually soon learn to like the looks of it.)

    • 1.    It’s a funny thing (and a good thing too) that once we make a choice, we all have a tendency to want to stick with it, and see only its advantages, and I think my next sail will be another SJR – after considerable thought. I want to do it better next time. I know it will take a bit more work and accuracy, and shelf foot requires a bit more seaming than the barrel/rounding method of getting camber – but I just love the geometry of it. I will say one thing in favour of the Amiina rig, in the matter of sail-making. There are less panels, very little lofting and a lot of replication – in that respect it is simple to make.
    • 2.    I will say this much about performance – if the SJR is superior to windward (and I say “if” though I think it ought to be) – it will only be so if the sail is well-made and the person on the helm is skilled at getting its full potential. I have proved that a SJR sail not particularly well-made, and in the hands of a helmsman with a fairly short concentration span, will perform averagely well to windward but not outstanding. I think I can say the sweet spot when going to windward is narrow and the sail might prove to be less forgiving of sloppy helmsmanship than an unsplit sail. I suspect Arne would get the best out of SJR just as he does with his Johanna.

    Arne says that any junk rig will go well down wind. I don’t know – all I can say is my SJR is a delight and a joy when reaching and running, and feels very powerful.

    • 3.    As for mast height – I am not quite so sure about that, I have still not been able to find a good explanation of minimum mast requirements, and in any case we are not talking about a great difference. And the fact is, you can over-canvas a bit and be prepared to reef a little early on any of the junk variants. Slieve says that with SJR you don’t need to and prefers to maintain the slightly better performance (higher AR) of an unreefed sail – maybe so for racing, but for inshore cruising: I think I am a bit over-canvassed but the boat sails quite well reefed and I have rather come back to Arne’s idea of “cram on a bit more sail, you can always reef.”

    I am still mulling over the best rig for my little scow project (the Pelorus is now just my home and the proposed conversion has stalled, I am embarrassed to say.) I would be interested in (but will probably ignore!) an expert opinion on the following:. My SJR for Serendipity was a prototype for the scow and I think I will continue down that road. But the idea of a low AR “Arne sail” is still lurking in my mind. Here are the criteria: Its not a race boat, its an old man's retirement home. What a scow needs is POWER and it is no use seeking close-winded performance with this sort of vessel. In the old days you would say it needs a gaff rig, and a Bermudan rig would be no good. With a scow like this, sail area is more important than high aspect ratio. When going to windward you have to lay off a little and opt for a bit more speed, rather than pointing high. So with that in mind, which rig looks best to the experts? (The SJR looks better to me, now, because I have got used to it, learned a little bit about it and convinced myself. Oddly enough, ideal mast position favours the low AR Arne sail.).

    What say you?

    PS I can't help adding that the soft wing appeals to me as the absolute ultimate in junk rig development and potential and I would dearly love to go down that road. But I am daunted by my lack of the technical skills that are required in making the hardware.

    Last modified: 09 Dec 2019 01:36 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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