Charging Up to Hybrid

  • 27 Nov 2019 08:12
    Reply # 8141468 on 8133077

    Interesting point about designing the whole system to suit electric power. 
    With regard to propellers, are slow moving, large diameter two blade propellers the best? That is significantly larger, perhaps 5x or more.  Human powered vessels with a tiny power input use propellers of similar size to small outboards. 
    This would need not only the power system, but the hull designed to suit.

    Last modified: 27 Nov 2019 08:13 | Anonymous member
  • 26 Nov 2019 21:14
    Reply # 8140772 on 8139774
    Anonymous wrote:I would suggest, if you have technical questions at this time, to visit the company's website (electricyacht.com). I have purchased the model: QuietTorque 10.0 Sport Electric Motor 


    Hmm, they are pretty closed about the product. Things I miss:

    • propeller recommendations
    • controller information
    • regen information (none?)
    • does remote mounting the controller kill warranty?
    • is the controller waterproof?

    I like that it is complete and therefore the parts are matched. I don't like that the controller is so low in the bilge. I suspect the motor itself will handle being submerged (God forbid) but I don't think the controller will. I would want to mount that high enough the people would notice water in the boat before the controller did.

    Anyone who chooses electric propulsion expects to use it rarely and sail more often. This means regen is almost more important than how well it moves the vessel in my opinion. Ah, further reading shows the sport does not include regen but the quiet torque 10 electric motor does... and costs $1000 more.

    I find it annoying that I can find the motor rpm/torque but not the drive ratio but perhaps that is chosen at ordering time. I personally would like to have the available options laid out before I was asked for a deposit so I could make a better informed decision.

    Sometimes little tidbits can be found while reading unrelated info. It appears this company runs their motors only in the constant torque range and so spec their motors as top speed equals the point where the motors goes from constant torque to constant HP. This probably makes sense in a boat. They do give a list of their motors and max torque/rpm but do not tell you which motor is used in which unit. From their web site I get the idea they want to talk to you so they can sell you a motor before they give much needed details so the buyer can make their own choice.

    Maybe I just distrust salesmen...

    Anyway, I think that motor will work out just fine for you. for what it provides. I would go larger diameter (just make sure you have proper clearance) and maybe up the pitch a bit if you are planning to replace to replace the propeller. It will drag less.

  • 26 Nov 2019 11:14
    Reply # 8139774 on 8133077

    I will certainly share my experience with this new motor as time goes by. Even if it's a failure, it can serve as a bad example. 

    I think it's part of my DNA to try new technologies. My paternal grandfather bought the first refrigerator in our home town. The first boat I built was a trimaran. Multihulls were scarce in those days. (1969) Then I got into ferro-cement. I could write a book. (Please don't ask for details.) Then came the junk rig and wood/epoxy construction.

    All I had left to do, to recommission my YSB12 Yanmar diesel, was to hook up the new control levers. My techie had brought my electrical and engine systems up to par and here I am changing course. At least, a good proportion of the money spent will not be forfeited since much of his work will dovetail into the new system. I'll advertise the motor online (Kijiji). The buyer will have a complete kit for restoring a vintage Contessa 26 or something like it. 

    The electric motor was picked up for shipping yesterday. I would suggest, if you have technical questions at this time, to visit the company's website (electricyacht.com). I have purchased the model: QuietTorque 10.0 Sport Electric Motor 


  • 25 Nov 2019 16:55
    Reply # 8138404 on 8133077

    Jan, I found the same as Arne, and was skinning my knuckles on the companionway until I also put in a 1:2 purchase. Now, the Sailpro is easier to start, with a shorter stronger pull, but can sometimes kick back.

    Have you noticed the difference between the Torqeedo 1003, and the new-for-2019 1103 and Epropulsion Spirit? The 1003 has a fast-turning AC motor with reduction gearing, and it's easy to imagine that giving trouble. The 1103 and the Spirit have a low speed DC brushless motor with direct drive and no gearing, which should be much more robust.

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    Last modified: 25 Nov 2019 18:17 | Anonymous member
  • 25 Nov 2019 16:21
    Reply # 8138323 on 8133077
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Jan
    I am afraid that if you wife struggles with starting a 5hp 2-stroke, she will also have problems with the Tohatsu 6 Sailpro. I have one myself. After I bought it, it wouldn’t start, so I took it back to the shop. Then it was demonstrated for me how it is done: A really long and fast pull, lawnmower style, was needed, much unlike on former 4-strokes I have had.  It appears that the maker of the motor has geared down the recoil-starter, possibly to avoid complaints about nasty kick-backs, which 4-stroke engines can produce.


    I modified my starter chord with a fool’s purchase, and I now find the engine to be reasonably easy to start, and from then on it is dependable, and can run forever at idle speed without dying.
    Maybe the outboards from Honda or Yamaha are easier to start? I would not buy any of them until they have demonstrated how they start.

    Arne

    PS: If you move up one step, to 2-cylinder (8-10hp) engines, you can have electric starts...

    PPS: If you convert your boat to a junkrig, the risk of falling overboard is much reduced, as you will rarely have to leave the cockpit. In addition, if one of you should fall over board, the JR makes it easier to go around and make a pick-up, since starting and stopping is so easy with a JR. After doing a bit MOB practicing by tossing a fender, tied to a bucket, overboard, you will soon find how easy it is to do the man-overboard manoeuvre under sail.


    Last modified: 26 Nov 2019 15:17 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 25 Nov 2019 14:16
    Reply # 8138155 on 8133077

    "Anyone looking for a secondhand Tohatsu 6 Sailpro?!"

    Maybe! Although I think we'll trade in our Mercury5 two-stroke and buy a brand new one.

    The discussion for me and my wife about the auxillary power centres around a man-over-board situation. If there is a MOB, bearing in mind we're on the south west coast of chilly Ireland, it will be me... and the Mercury 5 refuses to start for my wife. We're very tempted to switch to a Torqeedo but I don't think they're quite there yet so we'll probably go for a Tohatsu Sailpro. 

    I'm open to correction on this but the it seems the Torqeedo outboards can actually be damaged by leaving the prop spinning when you're under sail, it's too much of a risk to have to make sure you've pulled up the outboard as you get under way or have it on standby in the water as you sail in to a harbour. 

  • 25 Nov 2019 10:16
    Reply # 8137951 on 8137910
    David wrote:

    Well Jim, all us 'old diesel heads' will await with interest for the outcome of your conversion. A good diesel installation can be relied on when the going gets tough. But they come with complications, so if electric motor can perform the same job consistently and  reliably it can only be a good thing. I remember being very surprised at the minuscule dimensions of the electric motor in mehitabel  so certainly a clean tidy installation.

    ... until you add in six x 8V or eight x 6V golf cart batteries and a big controller.

    I did look at the possibility of an electric outboard motor on the little catamaran I am building, but I do not think I can provide the battery charging capabilities on such a small yacht,  so it looks like a small 4 stroke petrol outboard is the only practical solution. Not to mention the fact that a good electric outboard is many times the cost of a petrol outboard.

    Oh, how I wish that electric propulsion was a sensible proposition for Weaverbird - I will never be a 'petrolhead'! I would never want to go the hybrid route, building in the problems of an ICE, as well as the costs and complexity of an inboard electric installation, but with sun and wind power in place of fossil fuel, I could be persuaded about a small outboard. Financially, it never will be sensible, but practically, the numbers are beginning to make sense.

     Nestaway Boats is a good place to compare four direct equivalents: Suzuki and Lehr 2.5HP petrol/gas, Epropulsion Spirit and Torqeedo 1103 1KW electric.

    Photonic Universe is a good place to look at solar panels, wind turbines and controllers.

    In practical terms, it would appear that an Epropulsion Spirit would fit into the well of my Hunter Duette, and more importantly, could be fairly easily lifted out of the well  and stored, when I'm at anchor or on a long passage, which the current Tohatsu 6 can't.

    A 250 watt solar panel could be fitted as a kind of bimini, where a full width sprayhood normally goes over the companionway. With a 30A MPPT controller to make the most of this and my existing 100 watt panel, I think I could get the equivalent in performance of a 2.5HP petrol or propane outboard, with adequate recharging, at a "trifling" 3.3 times the cost. I found a Suzuki 2.5 too tricky to manoeuvre with, having only a F-N shift low down on the wrong side. An electric drive ought to be easier to work with, when coming alongside.

    Anyone looking for a secondhand Tohatsu 6 Sailpro?!

    Last modified: 26 Nov 2019 08:32 | Anonymous member
  • 25 Nov 2019 08:16
    Reply # 8137910 on 8133077

    Well Jim, all us 'old diesel heads' will await with interest for the outcome of your conversion. A good diesel installation can be relied on when the going gets tough. But they come with complications, so if electric motor can perform the same job consistently and  reliably it can only be a good thing. I remember being very surprised at the minuscule dimensions of the electric motor in Mehetibel  so certainly a clean tidy installation.

    I did look at the possibility of an electric outboard motor on the little catamaran I am building, but I do not think I can provide the battery charging capabilities on such a small yacht,  so it looks like a small 4 stroke petrol outboard is the only practical solution. Not to mention the fact that a good electric outboard is many times the cost of a petrol outboard.

    Last modified: 25 Nov 2019 08:20 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Nov 2019 10:13
    Reply # 8136826 on 8135482

    I would not hesitate to go offshore with extended cruising in mind with the set up I have now. The shore is the hard part. The electric motor is usually motor sailed off of the solar panels when every one else is ghosting with a big genoa or just motoring. The second use is to get in and out of the harbor in traffic.

      I have not needed maintenance other than cleaning the solar panels and have had complete reliability.

      ...... my large 2 x 6 volt Surrett (rolls) house batteries are still going very strong after 12+ years of use.

      I think you would really appreciate the switch.

    I went back to 2011 emails and found that you and I had a long discussion about electric power. Some photos too. I'd almost forgotten... But not subconsciously. :-)

    It's good to hear from someone who's "been there, done that." It's encouraging.

    About Surrette. Things have changed! - If you Goggle Surrette Battery Company Ltd. you will get ROLLS Battery Engineering. Surrette was bought out by Rolls-Royce but later sold back. They still use the Rolls brand name. Go there and click DISTRIBUTORS and you'll find a fair number in North America, especially the US west coast. There are others scattered about the world. You can find them in New Zealand. The factory is located in Springhill, Nova Scotia, about 110 miles from my home in Halifax. By Canadian standards, that's next door.  I've been directed to one of their distributors, in Pictou, N.S., Nova Sun Power. They have given me a quote on their 6V, S6-275AGM battery. I will order them (8) in the Spring, next year, allowing time for manufacture and delivery.


  • 23 Nov 2019 04:34
    Reply # 8135662 on 8133077

    As an aside to this discussion, the ferry company for which I work in New Zealand is currently investigating the introduction of all electric fast ferries within the next two years. One of our major commercial boat builders in Auckland is undertaking the R&D. They are talking about carbon fiber hulled catamarans of about 20 meters in length. I am following this with interest and wondering just how they will find the battery capacity for a ferry which would need to run all day long. But given that our company burns its way through a million liters of diesel per month during our busy summer season going electric will have major advantages in terms of carbon footprint, noise levels, and perhaps greater reliability.

    There is also apparently an electric high speed ferry under construction in Wellington and due to enter service some time in 2020.

    Last modified: 23 Nov 2019 04:36 | Anonymous member
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