Charging Up to Hybrid

  • 30 Nov 2019 14:11
    Reply # 8146716 on 8142376
    Anonymous wrote:
    My batteries are  a holding bank where you put energy in just as efficiently as you draw out. I have never regretted large hi voltage solar panels (higher than 52 volts will charge bank without combining panels together). Solar panels are my main power source. I had to make room for them on NA29 but your boat should be easier. discounts on the same unit.
    Do you have any pictures of your solar panel installation on Pake to show us?
  • 29 Nov 2019 11:05
    Reply # 8145828 on 8133077

    About chargers and propellers.

    In the new year, I will be ordering, from the same company, a battery charger. It will be tuned to the batteries we have chosen.  Namely:

    QuickCharge SCO4285. Selectable onboard battery charger (with temperature control) - 48V - 25amps, for flooded, gel and AGM batteries.

    They will discuss with you a suitable propeller to match your setup. For mine,  we've come up with a three-blade, 13" diameter, 11" pitch on our 1" shaft. They say the three-blade makes for better maneuvering.

     Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in this company.

  • 28 Nov 2019 20:34
    Reply # 8145367 on 8141709
    Anonymous wrote:

    Here it is anyway if 2.50 MB okay.


    Wow, interesting. One wonders if the speed increase from 2.6Kt to 3.3Kt is worth it. I would guess that is one place where the electric unit shines is low speed low power. An IC motor will deliver lower HP, but may in some cases use more fuel to idle than when moving faster. IC motors seem to have a sweet spot (most cars do better at 50m/h than at 30m/h) for best fuel use. Electric motors have a pretty even efficiency through the whole speed range.

    Also of interest is the difference between battery types. I was surprised that the LiFePo4 is less able than the AGM at low speed. The LiFePo4 should be able to discharge to a lower state than the others and therefore go farther. 3.3k and above makes sense though.

    While 2.6kt looks really good, one has to remember that current and wind can be higher and against the direction one wants to go. these figures are all calm water, no wind and no current.

    I wonder how these figures would compare to a similarly size flooded NiCd. which should be priced between agm and LiFePo4 and still handle more cycles. (If the local government hasn't banned them or charged a huge return fee)


  • 28 Nov 2019 19:40
    Reply # 8145335 on 8141468
    Anonymous wrote:

    Interesting point about designing the whole system to suit electric power. 
    With regard to propellers, are slow moving, large diameter two blade propellers the best?

    If the prop is behind the keel... A two blade prop has a short time twice a rev where the blades are not really doing anything resulting in a pulsing effect. An odd number of blades makes sure there is always the same amount of blade in the water stream.
  • 27 Nov 2019 23:49
    Reply # 8142528 on 8133077

    Thanks, George, for your input.

    I should clarify a few things.

    First, the "mission statement". I intend to use my boat as a "home away from home." A summer cottage. A place to hang out with friends. Harbour sailing and local coastal sailing. St. Margarets Bay, Mahone Bay and Lunenburg to the South and Cape Breton, Bras D'Or Lakes to the North. I'm NOT interested in deep-sea, blue water sailing. (Unless it's on a tall ship, but that's another story.) I don't think I ever was, though at one time I thought I should want to. Annie picked that up when we first met. She could see it before I did. 

    I forgot to mention that I intend to purchase a charger for from the vendor, tuned to the specifications for my  Surrette batteries, in January. 


  • 27 Nov 2019 21:34
    Reply # 8142376 on 8141706
    Anonymous wrote:

    Attached find are a couple of screenshots of the computer-generated performance prediction they made for my setup. It was calculated on the assumption that I will be using a 13 x 11 x 3 prop. I.e., !3" diameter with an 11" pitch and a three-blade propeller. We have in place now, a two-blade 13" x 10' pitch which has been tweaked to a higher pitch. Engine: Yanmar YSB12 (10 Hp) I'll see how that works first before trying the other. The vendor says I will have better maneuvering ability with a three-blade. For answers to questions that the website and this printout don't offer, I suggest getting in touch with these people directly by email or phone. If you're already wise to salesman's tricks, you'll know what questions to ask and recognize dodges and deceptions.

    It is my intention to purchase a Honda EU2200i portable generator to serve as a genset for the propulsion. But it will have other uses aboard. Someone cautioned me not to expect too much in the way of regen in a motor this size

    Sorry if the screenshots are a little fussy. The original file is 2.5 MB





    Hi Jim, if you use your portable generator for anything other than an emergency "get home" you may hate it as much or more than a diesel. You will also need an 120ac to 48 volt converter/charger. The size is base on your generator. I have 15 amp converters which only give me 3 knots. More speed = bigger generator/bigger converter. A 2000 watt generator can do 30 amp? You will need 30 amp (ebay?) charger/converter.

    For just propulsion I would keep the diesel. If you require a gen set to charge your batteries often  while traveling it should be a dedicated watercooled housed and quiet diesel like all the big electric boats.

     My batteries are  a holding bank where you put energy in just as efficiently as you draw out. I have never regretted large hi voltage solar panels (higher than 52 volts will charge bank without combining panels together). Solar panels are my main power source. I had to make room for them on NA29 but your boat should be easier. I have 2 big ac shore power 12 volt chargers for the battery bank. I have never needed to use them even once. I am on a mooring with no shore power.  Where there is absolutely no sun for days on end probably would be a problem. But, motor sailing with a junk rig with just the input from the panels (when everyone else is motoring) is a great joy if you can do it.

    The thrust bearing is important as the torque of an electric motor is impressive. The motor shaft to prop rotation seems to be debatable. Some have no reduction and some like myself opt for a large transmission as a thrust bearing with ratio. It really depends on the mystery of the prop you will using. I have been told that a bigger slower moving prop is the most efficient. Na29 having a small aperture, I put in the largest 4 blade to fit. (Largest individual expense in the whole system!). If you have a large battery bank you can turn the prop constantly to diminish the prop drag. On my boat I can go for days like this due to the efficiency of the system. The motor can easily take it and the relatively inexpensive transmission was designed for industrial use (factory conveyor belt?) and is lightly loaded.

    An advantage of an electric system is that it is modular. you can swap out pieces for better or bigger as life progresses. I can install a larger motor or differently geared transmission in about 30 minutes. The average cost of an air cooled pmac motor was around $600. $1500, maybe for a watercooled hi power model.The no maintenance trans was around  $300. A large Sevcon controller with display was around $500 or so. I haven't looked at prices for a while but the individual parts seem to be actually going down in price.

     I think that the greatest appeal for an assembled system is that the system is "turn key" and you are relying on their expertise. The disadvantage is if you need to actually change something in the "box" they give you and it won't fit. Most every thing but the "box" itself is right off the shelf and can be sourced easily. Nothing wrong with kit type installations if you understand what you are getting and you realize you are paying for expertise. An advantage is they seem to have" sales" on the assembled units and different distributors  have competitive prices with nice discounts on the same unit.

       For me, who grew up with complicated ic engines, electrical propulsion is so much easier to understand and to work on. For small sailboats, the real dilemma (and expense) is the ability to efficiently produce and store electrical energy on the boat itself.  4 x big 8d batteries /electric motor =  1 gal of diesel /(13 hp).If that does not deter you, you will probably be happy with an electric drive. 

    Last modified: 27 Nov 2019 22:03 | Anonymous member
  • 27 Nov 2019 13:45
    Reply # 8141768 on 8133077

    This is a very interesting project, I'm sure it will work but I'd caution anyone thinking of going down this route to lower their expectations about flooded or AGM batteries. Yes, Rolls-Surrette batteries really can handle many cycles down to 80%DOD but bear in mind that their figures are based on performance in a lab at 20 or 25 degrees centigrade. Capacity plummets as you get down to typical Northern latitude temperatures. Also, you're unlikely to be starting from 100%, filling the last 5 or 10% of these batteries gets quite innefficient. I know nothing about lithium batteries, they look as amazing as they are expensive! 

    Our house is off-grid, we generate power from PV and wind and a back-up genny in the depths of winter, so I've buckets of experience with Rolls, Trojan and ex-military batteries, and small yachty wind-turbines (Ampair, Rutland and home-brew). 


  • 27 Nov 2019 12:25
    Reply # 8141709 on 8133077

    Here it is anyway if 2.50 MB okay.

    1 file
  • 27 Nov 2019 12:17
    Reply # 8141706 on 8133077

    Attached find are a couple of screenshots of the computer-generated performance prediction they made for my setup. It was calculated on the assumption that I will be using a 13 x 11 x 3 prop. I.e., !3" diameter with an 11" pitch and a three-blade propeller. We have in place now, a two-blade 13" x 10' pitch which has been tweaked to a higher pitch. Engine: Yanmar YSB12 (10 Hp) I'll see how that works first before trying the other. The vendor says I will have better maneuvering ability with a three-blade. For answers to questions that the website and this printout don't offer, I suggest getting in touch with these people directly by email or phone. If you're already wise to salesman's tricks, you'll know what questions to ask and recognize dodges and deceptions.

    It is my intention to purchase a Honda EU2200i portable generator to serve as a genset for the propulsion. But it will have other uses aboard. Someone cautioned me not to expect too much in the way of regen in a motor this size

    Sorry if the screenshots are a little fussy. The original file is 2.5 MB





    2 files
  • 27 Nov 2019 10:02
    Reply # 8141569 on 8133077

    Yes, human powered boats are another case where the power source is slow-revving, and they do seem to go for very large two blade props. Translating that to aux power for sailing yachts, it would seem that a two blade folding prop of very large diameter and appropriate pitch would be worth investigating. It's also interesting that the Epropulsion Spirit has a 11" two blade prop, whereas the smallest petrol outboards, with twice the HP, use a 7.5" three blade prop.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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