Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

if the rudder has enough area and substantial enough depth ( to supply the lateral area).However, coming about sharply does depend on having lateral area in the midships region, to help the hull pivot when coming through the wind. So the question of draught is most relevant(in your case) unless you are looking at bilge-boards or alternative drop boards.... maybe even lee-boards.

Having enough keel depth to help in careening, though, might be worth taking into account. 

Thanks for your reply, can you please expand on what you mean by the lateral area.

One of my dilemmas, is that I like the idea of a full keel for stability, keeping course, and protection in general, and I'm sure they are better in big swells, and also apparently at anchor, but then you cant beach them, or go up creeks, or shelter from storms, which makes them ironically less pleasant. so I think I am talking myself into a bilge keel, or lifting keel. I don't think I should buy a hull just for storm safety.

Andrew, Hi.

Lateral area is the underwater area resisting leeway, which is  generally what keels supply, besides getting ballast mass deeper, with the aim of increasing righting moment and allowing for carrying of a taller rig.

Sufficient righting moment can, however, be achieved without a deep keel (notably when a a shorter split junk rig is included in the configuration).

Windward performance is still going to be compromised, even if lateral area is supplied by a lifting centre centreboard, and a motor might be a suitable way to make up for this defficiency. As already stated, a deep hoisting rudder can supply useful lateral area, and al thus reduce draught, without sacrificing seakeeping ability.

Talking about ferro boats in about the 50ft range - this link (www.leow.de-boatbarn-jrchli)should show a beautiful ferro Junk built by Capt Mike Briant.

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, I guess two sticks makes sense when the vessel is 40' or bigger. I suggest you have a look at the 49' ferrocement cruiser, Samson. It is rigged with wooden pole masts.
Here is a photo-review from a JRA rally in Stavanger in 2010, where Samson is described. In addition, Samson is described in JRA Magazine #44.

http://goo.gl/KIOwkH

Cheers, Arne

interesting, I have opened my mind up to ferro, as they are cheap and dont rust, and are stronger than timber and fiberglass.

thanks for reply everyone. The search for the perfect hull,  reminds me of when I was learning large-format photography, and the search for the perfect camera/lens.i spent over 20k only to realize I didn't use most of it and was happy with just one lens.

the draft on the boat mentioned in pic is 1.9m, will this exclude me from much onshore frivolities such as escaping storms up a creek, or in a harbor, i just read Anne's book, sailing on a budget, and she mentioned that a shallow keel, would get her up a creek and avoid fees, which is a good reasoning. we are severely over penalized for having two opposing thumbs as it is. why do we have to pay pay pay?

its great to hear that the keel is not a real issue for a junk.

i am not sure where I read it, oh actually I think Anne mentioned it, on her blog or book.

so to answer what type of sailing. well, tough one, I would like to have an all rounder, I have a yearning to go to the arctic areas, the tropics don't really interest me, my mission is to travel and make art as I go, painting, and maybe a little music. so I want to follow landscapes, maybe camp out with a portable studio tent, and make some videos for people to follow along. so I cant see myself in a small boat, I think i need about 40' even a 45 Adams , although this 36 https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/sailing-boats/laurent-giles/229512 with lifting keel seems feasible.

as I need room for storage of paintings (and instruments etc), as the below Adams even though it needs work, and I can weld, has an aft cabin that I can seal off and not have the entire boat filled with the smell of oil paint thinners and gum turps. as much as i love the smell. The yellow Adams will cost me 11k for hull, and about 30 to do up.

I suspect I will need two masts for a 45'? 12mtre flag poles cost about 6k each!

I'm sure that a timber mast will cost less. anyway, excuse my rambling!

images of lifting keel from link to Laurent Giles design.

All replies so far offer good advice, and that(from Arne) concerning a powerful rudder is what I most definitely insist upon.... it is possible to sail a junk rigged boat with  an insignificant keel, if the rudder has enough area and substantial enough depth ( to supply the lateral area).However, coming about sharply does depend on having lateral area in the midships region, to help the hull pivot when coming through the wind. So the question of draught is most relevant(in your case) unless you are looking at bilge-boards or alternative drop boards.... maybe even lee-boards.

Having enough keel depth to help in careening, though, might be worth taking into account. 

Andrew,

The choices of hull and keel type are only loosely connected to the choice of rig. If you put a junk rig on a boat that sails badly, it'll still sail badly. If you put a junk rig on a boat that sails well, it'll still sail well. No, the choice of hull and keel should be  made giving due consideration to the kind of sailing that you propose to do, in what area, and where, if any, you propose to have a permanent mooring or base. Twin keels are very well suited to shallow, drying harbours, that's why my last four boats have had twin keels or bilge boards. The same may apply to you on the NSW coast, but a full keel of moderate draught (like the one you show a photo of) would also be a good choice, with the river bar crossings and exposed passages that you'll have to make.

In other words, you can put a junk rig on almost any boat; don't worry too much about that aspect. Concentrate more on working out what kind of boat (independent of the rig) is going to suit you best. Then work out what particular form of the junk rig is going to suit that boat best.