New rudder for Zebedee

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  • 19 Nov 2018 19:45
    Reply # 6914574 on 6899643
    Anonymous

    It would be much easier to shape the rudder if it was a parallelogram.  One way to do this is by trimming 2 ins off the top of the leading edge tapering to zero at the bottom.  This would reduce the balance from 18% to 15.6%. Would this significantly affect the rudder performance?  PS the wetted area of the rudder is not exactly as shown because Zebedee is 7 ins lower in the water. 

  • 12 Nov 2018 20:02
    Reply # 6901266 on 6900517
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David Tyler wrote:

    The standard textbook Principles of Yacht Design reckons on the NACA 0012 foil for a rudder to be robust against stalling. An end plate will probably help, but adding one has made my rudder hum at high speed (it didn't before).

     A humming rudder is not the end of the world. My Frøken Sørensen's rudder sometimes did that when the speed exceeded 6.3kts. That rudder was a deep foilshaped thing, attached as a swing-up dinghy rudder (no endplate). My armchair guess is that the rudder on Zebedee is less likely to start humming, as it is supported at the lower end.
    No guarantees, though.

    Arne

    Last modified: 13 Nov 2018 22:29 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 12 Nov 2018 19:54
    Reply # 6901244 on 6899643

    Another thing that may help is reprofiling the bottom of the keel with an end plate similar to a Scheele keel. This helped Arcady and Arcadian achieve better windward performance and improved rudder response as more water is directed aft over the rudder by this configuration, less water slips below the keel. This only drawback is a slight increase in wetted area, which has a small effect on light wind performance.

    I agree with David Tyler on the construction, use the existing rudder as the base if at all possible and keep the weight down. A half section of PVC pipe of appropriate size can be used for the nose of the rudder, an easy way to get a good shape.

    I hope to see you at Norsand on Thursday.

    All the best with the work, David.

     

    Last modified: 12 Nov 2018 20:04 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Nov 2018 19:20
    Reply # 6901168 on 6899643
    Anonymous

    Many thanks!  The hole between the keel and rudder hasn't been filled in.  Your ideas exactly coincides with what Paul Thompson suggested including the 15 % NACA profile and end plates which I've only just heard of . Hauling out tomorrow.  I'll take photos of the various stages.  

  • 12 Nov 2018 13:36
    Reply # 6900517 on 6899643

    Alan, I agree with Arne about keeping the profile the same; it looks big enough to me. If the existing rudder is sound and strong, I suggest planing back to clean timber, then building up with a layer of 25mm PVC structural foam, Airex or similar, cutting back to a NACA 0012 foil section to 12%  t/c ratio, then adding two layers of heavy glass cloth and epoxy. That would be 100mm thick, but not as heavy as a solid timber rudder would be. The standard textbook Principles of Yacht Design reckons on the NACA 0012 foil for a rudder to be robust against stalling. An end plate will probably help, but adding one has made my rudder hum at high speed (it didn't before).

  • 12 Nov 2018 12:30
    Reply # 6900433 on 6899643
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Alan

    I am with David Webb that end plates will help, no matter what rudder foil you go for. This has been tried by me and many others ( a Phil Bolger idea), and it really cuts the turning radius with such a lo-AR rudder. Make the end-plate with a ‘wing span’ of  some 50-70% of the chord. In your case, I also suggest you add a similar ‘cavitation plate’ just below the waterline.

    As for foil shape, it depends: If you have filled up the propeller aperture with deadwood, so there is no gap between keel and rudder, there will be little help in making any fancy rudder section. If you on the other hand have built the original space between keel and rudder, I suggest a NACA 00-series section with 15% thickness to chord, that is 125.7mm or 4.95 inches thickness  -  if you keep the chord of 33 inches. These blunt sections are not prone to stalling. We built one such spade rudder for a 34’/4ton boat here and gave it 18% balance. We gave it over 17% thickness to make room for the rudder stock (freestanding). That rudder ensured powerful steering with light tiller forces.

    Now I twisted that rudder foil into one with 15% thickness and 33” chord, and added the numbers at each station. Showing a resolution of 0.1 mm is a bit overkill. Be happy if you approach 1mm resolution.

    Cheers,
    Arne

    PS: Just for the cause of science, I suggest you make the new rudder's profile and size as close as possible to the original.


    Last modified: 12 Nov 2018 13:32 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 12 Nov 2018 06:37
    Reply # 6899945 on 6899643

    Hi Alan,

    I would suggest a bit more area both ahead of the pintle line and aft of it as well as more thickness and a NACA type section. An end plate would also help. I will be in Whangarei later this week so will call in and see how you are getting on.

    David.

  • 12 Nov 2018 00:34
    Message # 6899643
    Anonymous

    2 weeks ago Zebedee failed to tack again but this time landed on the rocks. Foolishly I I hadnt left room to wear round.   I'm hauling out in 2 days time to do repairs and change the rudder . Zebedee has the keel and rudder of the long keel version as shown in Voyaging on a Small Income.  The current rudder is shaped but only 1.75 ins thick with a chord of aprox 33 ins.  I will have to check the chord.  I  don't want to change the rudder mounting ie the stern post.  Paul Thompson very kindly is working on it but it would be great to hear some ideas.  My first thought is that 1.75 ins is only 6% camber so that if the rudder is turned more than a few degrees there is turbulence and a braking effect.  So perhaps increasing the thickness to 12% or even more would help. 

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