Yard sling plate question

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  • 09 Aug 2011 08:39
    Reply # 672187 on 668822
    Deleted user
    Totally agree with Kurt`s analysis, and solution. On Ron Glas we removed the sling plates as they were all but worn through. we then spliced  a long rope to a large thimble and lashed the rope tails around the yard.  and through a lacing eye on the side of the yard away from the mast. Jock Mcleod sort of gave it the nod! the advantages are cost,  flexible connection, ability to adjust the lifting point, and most importantly you can fix/replace it quickly and easily ,Tony and Sally
    Last modified: 09 Aug 2011 08:42 | Deleted user
  • 08 Aug 2011 21:30
    Reply # 671910 on 671572
    Jim Creighton wrote:
    Gougeon Bros.(of West System epoxies) recommend fasteners be fitted to over-sized blind holes in thickened epoxy. I.e.,the threads do not touch the wood.They claim the hold is quite adequate. I wonder, however, what happens in tropical heat. I understand epoxy starts to soften over 120 F.
    I suppose a nut could be fitted in a recessed hole on the underside of the yard but might that weaken the yard?

    A hole drilled horizontally through the yard can be in its neutral axis, if it's being thought of as a beam, so there's little loss of beam strength. A hole drilled vertically, and oversize enough to be a proper epoxy socket, breaks the tension fibres of the beam at the top. The epoxy glue in the hole can't transmit the tension, so the beam is weakened. 

    If there were a glue that could hold a padeye on the top of the yard with 'quite adequate' strength, and no drilling, I wouldn't like that either. Why hold the rig up by the top of the yard, tempting the wood to split?

    And a yard is more than a beam. It bends in all sorts of planes, and bangs around the mast and gets jerked up and down from time to time. Epoxy is brittle and it cracks with shocks, such as sharp tugs on a fastener embedded in it.

    With lashings, the whole intact yard takes the loads. Rope is flexible, absorbs shocks and can line itself up fairly.

    Any of the methods discussed here could hold up a swing for the kids, but what's more confidence-inspiring and obvious and common-sensical than a couple loops of good rope simply wrapped around the branch?

    I'll put a photo of our yard-sling into mehitabel's album. Not because it's the ultimate or anything, but it's one way that certainly 'looks like it should work.'

    Kurt
  • 08 Aug 2011 10:14
    Reply # 671572 on 670915
    David Tyler wrote:The PJR yard sling is intended to be in line with the pull of the halyard, to avoid bending loads on "U" part, and unnecessary extra shear loads on the fasteners of the side plates.
    I seem to remember using a boom bail as a yard sling, back in the days when I was working for a mastmaker, and had access to such things. Being able to rotate, it avoids both of those two unfair loadings. The "U" shaped bail rotated on two side plates that were riveted to the tube. 
    With both, some fendering over the fitting on the mast side is a good idea, so as not to damage the mast as the yard pitches forward in a seaway. The U-bolt into the top of a wooden yard neatly avoids that possibility.

    Of course, to provide an "in line" pull. (What was I thinking?)
    But then, when reefed down to one panel, the canted yard sling would no longer be in line.
    What about a substantial eye-bolt, instead of a U-bolt?
    Gougeon Bros.(of West System epoxies) recommend fasteners be fitted to over-sized blind holes in thickened epoxy. I.e.,the threads do not touch the wood.They claim the hold is quite adequate. I wonder, however, what happens in tropical heat. I understand epoxy starts to soften over 120 F.
    I suppose a nut could be fitted in a recessed hole on the underside of the yard but might that weaken the yard?

  • 08 Aug 2011 08:34
    Reply # 671560 on 668822
    On mehitabel, boom bails work fine. Ours have the bolt crossing above the yard, with rope lashing the bolt right around the yard, the rope held from sliding by a strap-eye. Some leather against chafe. I haven't had to drill a hole in each yard. It's all movable, visible, replaceable anywhere.

    Before the boom bails, we had rope lashing and a thimble to take the halyard shackle. I never liked the rigid yard sling plate idea. 

    Actually, almost anything that looks like it should work, should work.

    However... I wouldn't choose the blind-epoxy-anchored U-bolt idea for a timber yard. Not without nuts and washers under the yard. Or at the very least the threads embedded nearly to the bottom of the yard. Throw on a few dozen turns of strong cord whipping, too... or round and round with epoxy-fibreglass.

    I like to grab all the fibres of the yard before I ask it to wave the whole rig above our heads, so I lash around it. To make a proper socket for the bolt and epoxy, you have to cut quite a few fibres in the top (tension) side of the yard. Why would I do want to do that?

    (I do use the threads-glued-in and (more often) epoxy-tapped&threaded-in methods on deck and hull. Great, there.) 

    Kurt

    Last modified: 08 Aug 2011 08:41 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Aug 2011 00:15
    Reply # 670915 on 668822
    The PJR yard sling is intended to be in line with the pull of the halyard, to avoid bending loads on "U" part, and unnecessary extra shear loads on the fasteners of the side plates.
    I seem to remember using a boom bail as a yard sling, back in the days when I was working for a mastmaker, and had access to such things. Being able to rotate, it avoids both of those two unfair loadings. The "U" shaped bail rotated on two side plates that were riveted to the tube. 
    With both, some fendering over the fitting on the mast side is a good idea, so as not to damage the mast as the yard pitches forward in a seaway. The U-bolt into the top of a wooden yard neatly avoids that possibility.
    Last modified: 07 Aug 2011 00:15 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Aug 2011 11:54
    Reply # 670707 on 668822
    When I purchased Josephine, my Corribee Mk.II, I discovered that the original yard sling had failed and was replaced by a boom bail.

    E.g. http://www.shopsoundboatworks.com/roboba.html

    A hole was drilled through the yard for a threaded rod. The bail swings freely. Seems to work fine. (I will be replacing the the threaded rod to prevent wear, with plain rod , threaded at the ends for the nuts.)
    I never understood why the yard sling depicted in PJR needed to be canted aft. It contributes little extra turning moment or topping up the yard. Why not just use a boom bail or U-bolt and move the pivot point a little aft of centre of the yard, if a little extra turning moment is needed?
  • 04 Aug 2011 10:49
    Reply # 669320 on 669064
    David Tyler wrote:
    Jerry Stebbing wrote:I've just finished building the yard for my new 18 ft boat. Dimensions are as per page 152 of PJR, built from laminated pine, and, to increase the stiffness, strength and durability, I sheathed the whole thing in unidirectional glass/epoxy.

    I don't have access to stainless welding gear, nor the cash to pay for professional welding so I'm looking for alternatives to the fabricated yard sling plate as shown on page 154 of PJR. I like Arne's use of webbing for a mast cap but his photos don't show how webbing is used to attach a block to the yard. I presume it's just a simple strop around the yard held in place by pads or eyes screwed to the yard?

    Alternatively I was considering using a large stainless U-bolt epoxy bonded in place with the hoop arranged fore and aft rather than athwartships. I've wrapped multiple layers of glass/epoxy around the yard's mid point so the U-bolt wouldn't significantly weaken the yard. Arne's Johanna seems to have a yard attachment plate running fore and aft so I guess an athwartship sling plate isn't vital.

    Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

    Also, would I need any fendering on the yard, bearing in mind that the mast is aluminium and the wooden yard has a generous glass sheathing, and I'll be attaching the sail with rope lashings rather than slides and track.


    I'd go for the large U-bolt, bonded into blind holes by the WEST method, Jerry. I think this is probably the easiest thing to do on a wood/glass yard. The webbing loop method will be preferred on an alloy tube yard, where it's more difficult to fix strongly to the metal tube wall. 
    You'll need some yard fendering, to protect the lashings, and to protect the mast finish - avoid scuffing the surface of an alloy mast, if you possibly can. PJR recommends dinghy fendering. A piece of flat or half-round plastic bar would be my favourite, screwed down over the lashings; with lashings, it's not possible to bond on a fender of leather or thin plastic.
    Many thanks David,

    I've previously had great success using the epoxy bonding technique for attaching all sorts of metal fittings, winches etc to wood decks and spars, so I'll have no worries about the U-bolt pulling out or creeping under strain.

    Thanks to the internet there are now several engineering plastics suppliers in the UK happy to accept small orders, and at very reasonable cost, so sourcing the yard fendering will be easy. A bit different to the old days where your 'friendly' local engineering shop charged a fortune for an offcut of nylon that cost them pence.
  • 03 Aug 2011 23:36
    Reply # 669064 on 668822
    Jerry Stebbing wrote:I've just finished building the yard for my new 18 ft boat. Dimensions are as per page 152 of PJR, built from laminated pine, and, to increase the stiffness, strength and durability, I sheathed the whole thing in unidirectional glass/epoxy.

    I don't have access to stainless welding gear, nor the cash to pay for professional welding so I'm looking for alternatives to the fabricated yard sling plate as shown on page 154 of PJR. I like Arne's use of webbing for a mast cap but his photos don't show how webbing is used to attach a block to the yard. I presume it's just a simple strop around the yard held in place by pads or eyes screwed to the yard?

    Alternatively I was considering using a large stainless U-bolt epoxy bonded in place with the hoop arranged fore and aft rather than athwartships. I've wrapped multiple layers of glass/epoxy around the yard's mid point so the U-bolt wouldn't significantly weaken the yard. Arne's Johanna seems to have a yard attachment plate running fore and aft so I guess an athwartship sling plate isn't vital.

    Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

    Also, would I need any fendering on the yard, bearing in mind that the mast is aluminium and the wooden yard has a generous glass sheathing, and I'll be attaching the sail with rope lashings rather than slides and track.


    I'd go for the large U-bolt, bonded into blind holes by the WEST method, Jerry. I think this is probably the easiest thing to do on a wood/glass yard. The webbing loop method will be preferred on an alloy tube yard, where it's more difficult to fix strongly to the metal tube wall. 
    You'll need some yard fendering, to protect the lashings, and to protect the mast finish - avoid scuffing the surface of an alloy mast, if you possibly can. PJR recommends dinghy fendering. A piece of flat or half-round plastic bar would be my favourite, screwed down over the lashings; with lashings, it's not possible to bond on a fender of leather or thin plastic.
  • 03 Aug 2011 18:16
    Message # 668822
    I've just finished building the yard for my new 18 ft boat. Dimensions are as per page 152 of PJR, built from laminated pine, and, to increase the stiffness, strength and durability, I sheathed the whole thing in unidirectional glass/epoxy.

    I don't have access to stainless welding gear, nor the cash to pay for professional welding so I'm looking for alternatives to the fabricated yard sling plate as shown on page 154 of PJR. I like Arne's use of webbing for a mast cap but his photos don't show how webbing is used to attach a block to the yard. I presume it's just a simple strop around the yard held in place by pads or eyes screwed to the yard?

    Alternatively I was considering using a large stainless U-bolt epoxy bonded in place with the hoop arranged fore and aft rather than athwartships. I've wrapped multiple layers of glass/epoxy around the yard's mid point so the U-bolt wouldn't significantly weaken the yard. Arne's Johanna seems to have a yard attachment plate running fore and aft so I guess an athwartship sling plate isn't vital.

    Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

    Also, would I need any fendering on the yard, bearing in mind that the mast is aluminium and the wooden yard has a generous glass sheathing, and I'll be attaching the sail with rope lashings rather than slides and track.


    Last modified: 03 Aug 2011 18:17 | Anonymous member
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