@David Thatcher:

100% with you on Bernd Kholer's cat designs.  If I go cat it would probably be something like the KD122, pelican or even just a bigger Eco 7.5.   I liked Woods designs too, but not so much his nettiquette, which really did come off to me at least as as 'only Woods designs are good' on the various forums.  I do however want my stand up head room in at least some places, and I am not short, thus more like a 40'-43' cat.  :P

I am however curious however on why live aboard/cruising would be harder on a proa then a cat or tri?   Tack/gybe vs shunt - okay, yes a difference.  Honestly that seems really more like a push tho.   Shunt is (in theory) easier, but it needs more room.  So then what else would make it a bad call?  Keeping in mind this is a cruising HP, not a Pac or Atlantic proa, so flying hulls or dipping a pod and such is not going to be a thing?

@David Tyler

All good points marina wise.  Length will hurt.  After 50' its quite a bit harder to find a marina for long term dockage on the east coast where I would be.    Short term is easier, and of course pricey. ;P   Width wise however?  Being a proa, nothing says I can't build it folding like some other HP designs, so it fits a large mono slip.  Unlike a cat where bridge deck goes between hulls, proa has its 'bridge deck' along one hull.   

Food and water.  Needed indeed.  Have a few ideas refrigeration wise.  Also some for water that should skip RO and all that goes with it.  Going to play with that a bit to make sure it works first.

Fuel/power wise?  Thinking electric for now.  So that would be 2-3 kW of solar with about 30kW of used Tesla model S modules to store it.   Have quite a bit to learn about and sort out here tho yet, so that could change.  And is another reason for a light boat.   

Internet is needed for me for a few years for work as I gear down, which = marina.  BUT 5-8 years down the road?  We will very likely have cell/internet via low earth orbit satellite network up.  Which I am sure saddens some, as there will be no escaping the nets on land or sea unless you go quite far north or south.  

Maneuvering wise I am aiming electric.  So propulsion (torqueedo or other) mid ship near 'pod' with 360 degrees of thrust vector.  Not perfect, but should be fairly maneuverable if tides are not bad - I hope. But yeah going to have to see here, you are right big is going to be harder than small to get around in.  Question is by how much?  

Something else to add into the equation:

Liveaboards have to find a way to get supplies, water and fuel at regular intervals. In some places, it's possible to anchor/moor off and take a dinghy into harbour, but not everywhere. Marinas charge by length, and then add extra for multis. You would need a deep pocket to berth a 60ft proa, if you could find anywhere where it was physically possible.

I would say that the hard-headed, practical, achievable choice for a multihull liveaboard would be a bridgedeck cat, biplane rig, 30ft max. The Kohler cats are obvious examples. But by all means have fun with a daysailing proa, to learn the building skills and also to see whether manoeuvring a larger proa into tight corners is something that you'd really want to do on a regular basis. I've seen a big proa, moored on the Pittwater, Australia, and the thought of bringing it into harbour is enough to put me right off proas.

I really don't see anyway to get away from double sheets on a junk rigged proa, but then double sheets have some good points too.

There's a lot of different opinions on just what constitutes a proa, some quite strongly held, I saw one that was basically a helicopter on pontoons that was apparently a proa. To many, if it can't shunt it's either an asymmetrical cat or a stabilized monohull.

they don't have to be long and lean either, check out keep turning left, a junk rigged proa that only tacks.  https://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/junk-rig-proa-lozenge/  it looks pretty roomy.

I think one of the things that might really make the junk rig shine on a shunter is that it could be fully stayed, not something I'm at all interested in doing, but I've often thought that the only thing that makes the bermuda sail work as well as it does is is that it fits under the backstay so it can be of a much higher aspect ratio and use much bigger head sails.

That setup in Rael Dobkins video is pretty cool, me, I'm trying to figure out ow to use just one side of the sail.

bill

PS: while I could see a junk rig working very well on a tri, I understand that an unstayed mast on a catamaran is problematic to say the least, and a stayed mast on a junk rig is equally problematic.

There is an interesting concept from Rael Dobkins on youtube, he intends it for Arne's type of sail but could work for split rig as well. That's if you are into experimenting...

Cheers,

Eerik

Hi Dave

There are a few Proa enthusiasts here, I'm working on a 16' pacific (ama to windward) shunter at the moment and I'm planning on a split junk for it.

Proas have a lot of advantages which means there are a lot of tradeoffs,  just for example, for the same cost in weight and money you get a much longer, faster boat, which costs much more to keep in a slip, every silver lining has a cloud :)

when you say small, how small do you mean? I think harry proa has designs right down to about 16'

Gary Dierking has a great book "Building Outrigger Canoes" with 3 sets of plans, 2 different hawaiian style proas, one in plywood and the other in cedar strip plank as well as an asymmetrical Proa in cedar strip. Just don't read the strip plank sections unless you really want to go there because he makes it sound like such a fantastic way to build you'll want to go there :)

 I think all three designs can be stretched or shrunk, the plywood hawaiian style can be built in one piece or sections that bolts together, one guy made his in 7' sections so he could keep it in the closet of his dorm room, I'm building mine in 8' sections, just the ends at the moment, but I may build a middle section for it someday, or two, or three :)

The plans in the book are ok, but if you're not fairly handy you might want to pay for a plan set, the book is ~ $25 and the plan sets are about $140 us each and much more complete. 

I'm also fairly frugal and went with the book, haven't had any problems yet, Gary is really good about helping out with information.

Gary has played around with junk rigs too, here's his blog with a tacking JR Proa 

I don't think Mr Denning has tried any other rigs, he seems to be fairly focused on racing and triangles.

Chesapeake Light Craft  have a couple of proa designs, Mbuli, a whalebacked proa is about 20' I think and he has a longer one, Madness that is 31' if I recall and bluewater capable is designed along the lines of Russell Browns proas, think they may have actually worked together on that design.

you can find a lot of info here in the junk rig information section, split junk information is in the "Public Domain Files" under Slieve McGalliard's files, I strongly recommend reading Arne Kverneland files as well, his are mostly on the Hassler/McCloud rig but a lot of the information and ideas he covers will apply in some way to almost any junk rig design, with all the writing he does I don't know when he finds time to sail :)

If you don't mind the rather hefty price tag, "The Practical Junk Rig" is probably the most complete text on the junk rig but doesn't have anything specific to the aero rig or split junk as both were developed since it was written.

Good luck with your build, I hope some of that helps.

Bill