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Fast way to make cambered sails

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  • 02 Jun 2011 07:15
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    Reply # 611141 on 610699
    Deleted user
    Gary Pick wrote:Listen to Arne Gary, I used his method and it's not that hard. make it at night instead of watching the telly.:)
    Arne's sailmaking articles are the ants pants and apart from the odd question they were all I needed.
    I used lino as a pattern for my parallel panels and with a bit of planning you could cut all of them at the same time.
    Yes, I've have been convinced by this thread.
    Looks like I'm following Arne's book, his shape (parallel panels w/ intermediate panel), and I can easily use David's tucks in lieu of the barrels.
    I dont know if performance is better (than barrel cut), if the panels look like shelf footed ones then they certainly will look neat and more yachtie like.
    Lino sounds like a great idea! Though it will be a couple months before we start.
    Last modified: 02 Jun 2011 07:16 | Deleted user
  • 02 Jun 2011 00:27
    Quote
    Reply # 610699 on 605377
    Anonymous member
    Listen to Arne Gary, I used his method and it's not that hard. make it at night instead of watching the telly.:)
    Arne's sailmaking articles are the ants pants and apart from the odd question they were all I needed.
    I used lino as a pattern for my parallel panels and with a bit of planning you could cut all of them at the same time.
  • 30 May 2011 23:45
    Quote
    Reply # 608696 on 608280
    Anonymous member
    Gary King wrote:
    Arne, David

    Thanks, I get your point, it is the batten attachment that puts traditional method at the back of the pack.

    David, looking at your tuck panel, that is virtually a shelf foot panel right?  I mean it looks like it will create the same hollowed out shape. And it is still classed as the easy way? I'm impressed!
    Yes, it's making a 3D shape with the least possible amount of work. The marking and cutting out of the panel takes about the same amount of time and skill as one of Arne's barrel panels. Just add a few minutes to sew the tucks, and you end up with a better deal, IMHO!
  • 30 May 2011 16:27
    Quote
    Reply # 608280 on 605377
    Deleted user
    Arne, David

    Thanks, I get your point, it is the batten attachment that puts traditional method at the back of the pack.

    David, looking at your tuck panel, that is virtually a shelf foot panel right?  I mean it looks like it will create the same hollowed out shape. And it is still classed as the easy way? I'm impressed!
  • 30 May 2011 10:40
    Quote
    Reply # 605458 on 605377
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Monday

    Gary

    There is one thing that puzzles me: Over and over I read about people who spend hundreds, not to say thousands of hours building their dream boat, but when it comes to making the sails, they either leave the job to a sail maker, or in the JR context; the junk sail has to be built so terribly fast.

    I claim that you will only save 20hours (at most) on making an inferior (flat) sail compared to stepping up to a reasonably well-setting cambered sail. My first cambered sail for Malena (32sqm) took me just 40hours to make. To everyone’s and my own surprise this sail held for over 15 years until the canvas itself died from sunrot. If I were to make a flat sail for Malena now, I cannot see how I could possibly save as much as 10hours work compared to using my barrel cut method of making a cambered panel sail. The barrel cut method is indeed a quick and dirty method which involves some untidy wrinkles along the battens. It’s the way it is.

    So you think lashing and grommets will save you time? Sorry mate, you will not. If you want the grommets to hold, then you will have to hand-stitch them in place. Takes forever. If you just bang them in place, then they will soon get ripped out.

    Flat sail: If you want to use a soft cloth and just let the camber "happen", the Chinese way, remember this:

    1) Fit a stiff boltrope around the sail. You will not get any camber if the whole sail stretches including the edges of the sail.

    2) What we call soft canvas, for instance Odyssey III, is not soft in this Chinese JR context and will not stretch enough to produce a natural camber.

    One very quick method to get some camber in a flat sail is to insert tucks at luff (and possibly leech). Then the sail should be made over-size so as to get the right size when the tucks have crimped it (or you may add a panel later). Se NL 26 p.14

    Anyway, good luck with your project!

    Arne
  • 30 May 2011 10:16
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    Reply # 605454 on 605450
    Anonymous member
    Gary King wrote:
    David,
    That is still 28m of seaming versus 15 to 18m for vertical cut. Pockets?  What pockets? I was going to lash the battens on, Chinese style. Maybe install grommets along the cloth.
    Putting on patches for the grommets, putting in the grommets, lashing the battens on, takes a lot more time than sewing some pockets and sliding in the battens, and costs more, too, Gary.
  • 30 May 2011 08:16
    Quote
    Reply # 605450 on 605377
    Deleted user
    Kurt,
    I knew you would say that.  There's not much wind in Indonesia you know...

    David,
    That is still 28m of seaming versus 15 to 18m for vertical cut. Pockets?  What pockets? I was going to lash the battens on, Chinese style. Maybe install grommets along the cloth.

    Though I will consider your tuck panel method, I still like the traditional way.
    This chap weights his panels with water.

    Last modified: 30 May 2011 08:21 | Deleted user
  • 30 May 2011 06:42
    Quote
    Reply # 605435 on 605377
    Anonymous member
       Since this is your first try at sailmaking, Gary, I think that "fast" equates with "easy". That is, if you use a method where there are no tricky techniques, no sailmaker's judgement to be applied, things go quicker. I think that broadseaming, assembling a shelf foot and trying to get wrinkles and camber where you want them come under that heading. Now that Odyssey and Topyssey are used for junk sails, their width of 160/163cm makes it easy to get a panel out of one cloth, and you save a lot of tedious seaming. The seaming up of vertical cloths is fairly easy as long as they are straight, but it's a lot of work.
       The adding on of batten pockets and patches as separate pieces is even more work. It is easier and quicker to make the batten pocket as part of the process of joining two panels together. Arne has been advocating this method for some time. We might differ as to exactly how the batten pocket can be formed so as to save the stitching from too much loading in the wrong directions, but the basic idea of joining two panels and creating a pocket in the process has much to recommend it. 
       The professional sailmaker who is making Graham Cox's sail quickly spotted that the tucked panel I drew is the quickest way to get the camber in the right place without fighting wrinkles or other speed-sapping difficulties. For a professional, speed equals making money rather than losing it. 
       So I would say: a single cloth per panel, with camber added by tucking, and pockets added as part of seaming panels together, is the quickest way. 
  • 30 May 2011 06:31
    Quote
    Reply # 605433 on 605377
    Anonymous member
    I hesitate to comment... but then I do...

    1) Just don't make cambered sails? (Flat sails are okay, but hard to keep flat, so...)
    2) Use soft cloth, and let it happen?
    3) Use a proven method, and  pretend  it's fast?
    4) Make cambered battens instead? Later... when  t h i n g s  s l o w  d o w n...
     
    Best wishes, and vibes for a happy project,
    Kurt
    Last modified: 30 May 2011 06:32 | Anonymous member
  • 30 May 2011 04:18
    Quote
    Message # 605377
    Deleted user
    Is there another way besides creating these sails panel by panel?
    I'm thinking traditional chinese construction method as described by Vincent Reddish. He added some camber by placing weight on each panel as he sewed the cloth to the bolt ropes and battens. I think to get enough camber a lot of wrinkles have to be sewed into the cloth.

    What about when the large cloth is vertical sewed together, adding round broadseam into the joins. The seams closer to the luff are more round than towards the clew, so hopefully maximum camber is forward of centre of the sail. This way when the whole thing is laid down atop of the staked out boltrope-batten network, camber is already built in.

    Or round the luff, boom and yard sides only, achieve roughly the same result.

    This is purely a labour saving idea, since the boat isnt even built yet and it is a lot of work. I'd save the more complex build like shelf foot version for sailplan mkII. I read Reddish made his sail in only a few days.

    I hope folks here understand what I'm saying as I'm not quite up to speed with sailmaking terminology.
    cheers
    Last modified: 30 May 2011 04:19 | Deleted user
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