Bond sheet plywood to sheet steel?

  • 03 Apr 2018 08:07
    Reply # 6012505 on 6010531
    David Thatcher wrote:

    We have an adhesive here in New Zealand called Gorilla Glue, which I imagine is available in other countries. I know that is used a lot in boatbuilding and seems to have properties which allows it to expand into the wood fibers for an effective bond. It also involves no mixing of different parts the way epoxy does. However I do not know if anyone has used it in hull construction such as gluing on the exterior hull planking. 

    Marcus used Gorilla on Freebie, to try it out.  He reckons that while the plywood appears to stay stuck, the solid wood to plywood joints are much less reliable and wood to wood scarfs tend eventually to open up.  It would probably be OK if you maintained it varefully, ensuring that the paint film never gave way. As I have found that paint doesn't stick that well to plywood in the long term, unless it has been pre-coated with epoxy, this seems like a drawback for something intended to last many years.  If you are going to seal the wood with epoxy, you may as well glue with it.
  • 03 Apr 2018 06:42
    Reply # 6012427 on 6010378
    Deleted user
    Scott Yellig wrote:


    Any thoughts or experience using LN-2000 for screw-and-glue joints below the waterline?

    Scott.


    So, further to this and my previous comments I had a talk today to a very experienced boat building friend of mine. He has built quite a few cruising yachts to his own design, the largest being 15 meters. He said that he has actually built a little boat using liquid nails type adhesives, but it was not intended as a long lived boat. This also reminded me that I have had a couple of liquid nails glue joints fail in building applications, it seemed that the adhesive had dried out within the joint. I hope that is not a characteristic of all these glues because the paneled plywood ceiling in the living area of our house is held up in part by a Liquid Nails adhesive! 

    He also said he has built a dinghy from what we in New Zealand would call a waterproof PVA glue, and apparently with good results. We discussed our Gorilla Glue and decided that would be very good for a large number of boat building applications but maybe not for the exterior. We also talked about the older Resourcinal glues which were a powder mixed with a liquid and were usually quite red in colour. There have been a lot of boats built with these glues and which after 50 years or more are still sound.

    So there are alternatives to Epoxy. Of course the thing of I love the most about Epoxy is it's gap filling characteristics.

    Last modified: 03 Apr 2018 06:44 | Deleted user
  • 03 Apr 2018 03:42
    Reply # 6012303 on 6010378
    Scott Yellig wrote:

    Hello,

    I would like to get some opinions on using a specific construction adhesive for boat building. The adhesive I am looking at claims to bond to just about anything. I hope this thread about bonding sheet plywood to sheet metal is an appropriate place to ask.

    I have been using PL Premium to put together a puddle duck while I continue to go back and forth between 'build' and 'buy' for the our next family cruiser. I have to say that using a caulk gun and not messing with epoxy mixing ratios and thickeners made the whole thing a lot more fun than other boat work I have done. The only thing I did not like is how the PL Premium would 'bubble up'. 

    Right now I am thinking about building a Triloboat and using what I think is a relatively new adhesive called LN-2000 (Fuze It).

    The thing that really has me interested is the following spec:

    Application Temperature: 0°F to 140°F (-17°C to 60°C)

    This would mean that I could actually do some assembly during a sunny winter day and the stuff would cure properly when the temperature drops at night. I have not seen anything else that comes close to this working temperature range. 

    Any thoughts or experience using LN-2000 for screw-and-glue joints below the waterline?

    Scott.


    I tried a different Liquid Nails product in the past and I'd characterise it as brittle with poor wood penetration and joints that were prone to failure.  When I've messed with non-traditional adhesives, I've I'd made up a bunch of test pieces and then tested the various adhesives head to head.  2"x4" pieces ply with a 2" square overlapping joint are easy to put in a vise to test for pealing failure (hold one end in vise, turn the other with large cresent wrench).  Anything not failing in the wood when you torture the pieces isn't worth bothering with.  Long-term below waterline is the second thing to consider and harder to test for.  Try boiling your test pieces for 30 minutes and then test them to failure again.  You will probably still need epoxy for your final coating of wood as few things compare to its low permeability to water.
  • 02 Apr 2018 04:01
    Reply # 6010531 on 6010378
    Deleted user
    Scott Yellig wrote:


    Any thoughts or experience using LN-2000 for screw-and-glue joints below the waterline?

    Scott.


    This looks very similar to various liquid nails type adhesives we have here in New Zealand. The big question is whether it is designed for prolonged periods of immersion in water which is different than being waterproof which is the main requirement of building adhesives. And there is the other question of just how durable and long lasting do you want the boat to be. When it comes to long term durability in boat-building nothing beats Epoxy, which while being a lot more expensive and difficult to use provides the ultimate in longevity, rather than 'quick and dirty' boat-building.

    We have an adhesive here in New Zealand called Gorilla Glue, which I imagine is available in other countries. I know that is used a lot in boatbuilding and seems to have properties which allows it to expand into the wood fibers for an effective bond. It also involves no mixing of different parts the way epoxy does. However I do not know if anyone has used it in hull construction such as gluing on the exterior hull planking. 

    Last modified: 02 Apr 2018 05:51 | Deleted user
  • 02 Apr 2018 01:22
    Reply # 6010378 on 5995742

    Hello,

    I would like to get some opinions on using a specific construction adhesive for boat building. The adhesive I am looking at claims to bond to just about anything. I hope this thread about bonding sheet plywood to sheet metal is an appropriate place to ask.

    I have been using PL Premium to put together a puddle duck while I continue to go back and forth between 'build' and 'buy' for the our next family cruiser. I have to say that using a caulk gun and not messing with epoxy mixing ratios and thickeners made the whole thing a lot more fun than other boat work I have done. The only thing I did not like is how the PL Premium would 'bubble up'. 

    Right now I am thinking about building a Triloboat and using what I think is a relatively new adhesive called LN-2000 (Fuze It).

    The thing that really has me interested is the following spec:

    Application Temperature: 0°F to 140°F (-17°C to 60°C)

    This would mean that I could actually do some assembly during a sunny winter day and the stuff would cure properly when the temperature drops at night. I have not seen anything else that comes close to this working temperature range. 

    Any thoughts or experience using LN-2000 for screw-and-glue joints below the waterline?

    Scott.


  • 29 Mar 2018 15:58
    Reply # 6006271 on 6005587
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:
    Nicholas Head wrote:
    Is it possible to weld stainless to mild steel and achieve a decent result?

    It's commonly done on steel boats, to add components subject to wear - fairleads, rubbing strips etc. I suggest it here if the inside of the tube is inaccessible for painting, but if the tube is short enough that you can paint, use mild steel. There are some technicalities to take care of, the main ones being to use 316 tube, with 309 filler rod, and to overlap the repaint of the mild steel an inch over the stainless steel. But your welder should know this if he works on boats.
    f   Thank you all again. At least now I know what to ask/check of the welder. I will take photos of the process making the locker lids and drains and post so the results may help others and critique is always helpful. Now, to work ( including some welding for Darren) Nick
  • 29 Mar 2018 08:22
    Reply # 6005587 on 6005000
    Nicholas Head wrote:
    Is it possible to weld stainless to mild steel and achieve a decent result?

    It's commonly done on steel boats, to add components subject to wear - fairleads, rubbing strips etc. I suggest it here if the inside of the tube is inaccessible for painting, but if the tube is short enough that you can paint, use mild steel. There are some technicalities to take care of, the main ones being to use 316 tube, with 309 filler rod, and to overlap the repaint of the mild steel an inch over the stainless steel. But your welder should know this if he works on boats.
  • 28 Mar 2018 23:56
    Reply # 6005029 on 6004558
    Nicholas Head wrote:I see. Yes, thank you Darren and David for those ideas. Obvious now you say it but not to a numpty like me. I will use those hints for sure. I can see the attraction of a welded pipe drain solution. Something like this below?  And then just need to find a competant welder in Cardiff somewhere in the Bristol channel to attach them. I am so glad I asked for help on this. I have learned a lot and can proceed with some confidence of a good result. Thank you again.
    You probably don't want to use galvanized pipe.  The zinc coating that makes it galvanized comes off as a vapor when you weld it and gives you flu like symptoms if you breath it.

    I think your boat is on the hard?  If so, I'd ask around the yard if there is a welder around or works near.  Having him take a quick look at it is a good first step, like David said he may have some suitable material on hand.

    If you need to buy material, then it is again worth poking around the boatyard to see what can be found, many have a bin of metal somewhere.  A piece of 3" dia 316 stainless pipe could work.  If you can't find it in the yard, then a scrap yard is a good place to look.  No idea if you can do this where you are, but here there are still some yards that sell the better bits they have on hand.  Around here stainless is about $2 per pound bought this way.   If you go, bring one of those strong rare earth magnets you got for grabbing the swarf while drilling.  A very strong magnet won't stick to piece of 316 stainless (except very weakly on an end where it has been sheared or cold worked) which is the best marine grade. If the magnet sticks weakly all over the piece, this is grade 304 and not as corrosion resistant as 316.  If the magnet sticks with any tenacity at all, you are going to have to epoxy/paint the material to keep it from rusting.

    From the hull pics, it looks like you already have some experience dealing with rusty steel bits :-)  if your pipe is short enough that you can get into it to clean it from either end, then you could use mild steel (cheap and common) and protect it the same way you do the rest of the hull.

    Buying directly from a bulk metal supplier yourself isn't really practical for a small project like this.  You usually have to buy full lengths (20') which often isn't economical.  Again, going through the welder here might be more practical.

  • 28 Mar 2018 23:24
    Reply # 6005000 on 6004572
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:

    I'd say to first find your welder/fabricator. You only need a couple of short ends, which he may have in his scrap bin, or know where to find them.

    Subject to better advice from the welders among us, I'd use stainless steel for this, as it would be difficult to paint mild steel well, inside the tube, and galvanising has to be stripped back clear of the weld area. Then you'd just have to touch up the paint in the immedcinity.



    I will start making enquiries about welders and see if I can get some recommendations
    Is it possible to weld stainless to mild steel and achieve a decent result?
  • 28 Mar 2018 19:48
    Reply # 6004572 on 5995742

    I'd say to first find your welder/fabricator. You only need a couple of short ends, which he may have in his scrap bin, or know where to find them.

    Subject to better advice from the welders among us, I'd use stainless steel for this, as it would be difficult to paint mild steel well, inside the tube, and galvanising has to be stripped back clear of the weld area. Then you'd just have to touch up the paint in the immediate vicinity.

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