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Flat Sails are Still Okay

  • 17 Jun 2013 13:14
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    Reply # 1319977 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    Arne and Paul, thanks for your comments.  As Arne says I am stuck with the mast rake (seemed like a good idea at the time and I am not planning to rebuild the partners and step!)  I may well fit a full length yard and remake the top panel one of these days but right now I just want to go sailing for a year or so, starting in about 4 weeks.  The sail works.  I can pull the battens back with my throat hauling parrel quite effectively but have chosen to fit Paul Fay type fixed luff parrels on the lower 4 battens which gives me positive batten stagger at the cost of some friction.  I wrote my comment slightly tongue in cheek in my usual drier than the Sahara Desert humour - I was a bit grumpy after spending three or four days hoisting and dropping the sail as I tweaked all the fixed parrels to get the tensions right.  I couldn't help thinking of Kurt on mehitibel and his elegant "good enough" philosophy.  I am really in tune with his attitude and frankly I think mehitibel sails more than well enough for the sort of laid-back cruising I enjoy.  Performance to windward is not my highest priority - which is a good thing since Arion is 24 foot LOA with a 10 foot beam and a 5 ton displacement.  We sail very nicely on a reach or a run... 

    What I intend to do now is put a few thousand miles under the keel and see how I feel about the rig at the end of it.
  • 17 Jun 2013 10:59
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    Reply # 1319919 on 594527
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Graham, your problems make me scratch my head: My experience with cambered HM sails is good, and I have also found that the taller their AR is, the less attention is needed to adjust the running parrels. Johanna’s sail with an AR=1.87 is close to the lowest I would have (but I may get away with lower AR if I don’t cut the masts so short). Your medium-high AR sail should be easy to make set well.

    I could think of twoo reasons for your problems:

    Your mast is too short for your sail so that you were forced to cut the yard short. This results in that you get problems with the force of the halyard working too far forward in the sail. A throat hauling parrel may help against this. On my Johanna the mast is also on the short side so the slingpoint on the yard has been moved as forward as I can without getting handling problems (aft-heavy sail). With a foot taller mast I could have moved the slingpoint a bit aft. This would make the sail set with less attention to the LHP and YHP.

    Another reason could well be the forward rake of your mast. When you lower the sail, naturally the halyard will always want the sail to fall forward and thus create negative batten stagger. The fact that forward rake works well on the lo-AR fanned sail of Fantail, may not be a proof that forward rake is also good on a medium-high AR Hasler-McLeod sail.

    What to do? Lengthening the mast is probably too much trouble. I would re-make the top panel with a full length yard. Then I would experiment with the position of the slingpont, starting on the mid-point and even try it a little aft of that. This will not let you hoist the whole lowest panel any longer so you may end up sailing with 6 panels until you can re-cut panel 7 to about half size.

    The rake of your mast is probably also fixed so you have to live with that and use the throat hauling parrel to control the batten stagger as you lower the sail. Wasn’t that the way you do it today?

    If building a HM-style sloop JR from scratch, I would recommend using a perfectly vertical mast. On a schooner I would have a vertical main mast and maybe 2-5° forward rake on the foremast. This ensures a better barrier against accidental gybes (caused by turbulence from the mainsail) and also moves the CE forward.

    Arne
  • 17 Jun 2013 04:57
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    Reply # 1319809 on 1319793
    Anonymous member
    Graham Cox wrote:Hi, I am writing something here instead of in Daniel Collins YCB post about my cambered sail.  First of all, the jury is still out as far as I am concerned, I do like the performance of my cambered sail, but unlike Annie Hill and Paul Thompson, I find I need extra fixed parrels to control my sail, namely HK parrels and fixed luff parrels on the four lower, parallel battens, which add friction and need a lot of fiddling with when initially setting up to get the tensions right.  I think the major problem with my sail may be the short yard.  I think putting a short yard on a Fantail type fanned sail is ok but that it may not be desirable on a Hasler McLeod sail with its long straight luff.  The hoist point on the yard is a long way forward (300mm) of where it would be if the yard was the same length as the battens and this seems to make the sail want to go forward with a vengeance (negative batten stagger) when lowering unless restrained.  So I might have a different opinion if I had stuck to the classic HM sail but as it is, things are complicated and I wouldn't mind a little less clutter.   Anyway, I think it will be a long time before I build a new sail so I have lots of time to suck my thumb and ponder.
    Graham, I'm near 100% sure your problems are due to you shorting the yard. You have a standard HM sail of moderate aspect ratio, so nothing is extreme. Since the HM type sail works for Arne, Alan (Zedebee) and myself to name a few. I cannot see why else it does not work for you. Have you considered putting back what you cut off?
  • 17 Jun 2013 04:23
    Quote
    Reply # 1319793 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    Hi, I am writing something here instead of in Daniel Collins YCB post about my cambered sail.  First of all, the jury is still out as far as I am concerned, I do like the performance of my cambered sail, but unlike Annie Hill and Paul Thompson, I find I need extra fixed parrels to control my sail, namely HK parrels and fixed luff parrels on the four lower, parallel battens, which add friction and need a lot of fiddling with when initially setting up to get the tensions right.  I think the major problem with my sail may be the short yard.  I think putting a short yard on a Fantail type fanned sail is ok but that it may not be desirable on a Hasler McLeod sail with its long straight luff.  The hoist point on the yard is a long way forward (300mm) of where it would be if the yard was the same length as the battens and this seems to make the sail want to go forward with a vengeance (negative batten stagger) when lowering unless restrained.  So I might have a different opinion if I had stuck to the classic HM sail but as it is, things are complicated and I wouldn't mind a little less clutter.   Anyway, I think it will be a long time before I build a new sail so I have lots of time to suck my thumb and ponder.
  • 10 Mar 2012 05:01
    Quote
    Reply # 853249 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    When I said this:

    'Practical Junk Rig' is close to 25. Maybe it's nearly time for a book which incorporates what has been learned since the 1980s, into the previous many centuries' wisdom. Perhaps there could be specific contributions by those who have added to our knowledge.

    It should aim to be authoritative and as solidly useful as PJR, while inspiring further evolution - goals which Hasler and McLeod balanced quite well - though it might encompass greater variety. 

    It should be about the size of the Oxford English Dictionary, and come in an even number of volumes so as not to cause a list. And it should have jokes. Lots of jokes and a DVD or two.

    ... I had no idea it would draw out such suggestions.

    But I can't see a quality committee book ever emerging.

    I don't think the rights to PJR need be sought if they could be bought.

    Two or so committed people - main author and editor, say - could produce what I described. However, I suspect they're doing too much sailing and boatbuilding this decade...

    Cheers,
    Kurt

  • 02 Mar 2012 23:14
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    Reply # 842345 on 594527
    Deleted user
     I don't know if anyone is monitoring the site with particular reference to items that could be addressed at the AGM, so let's try to remind each other closer to the time. David, perhaps we should create a page for 'AGM Reminders'?
  • 02 Mar 2012 00:22
    Quote
    Reply # 841303 on 841287
    Deleted user
    Brian Kerslake wrote:Good point, Gary. This is all 'pie in the sky' at the moment, anyway. It would cost to get the rights and it would cost to get it done - I can't see an amateur/hobbyist taking it on. 
    I think it is really important, the AGM ought to discuss it. atm novices are directed to buy the book (essential) then directed to a bunch of files distributed around the net.
    Gotta fix that!

    Well, the "get it done" part can be taken care of by adding a cambered sail making appendix at the back. Which is doable since the words have already been written.
  • 01 Mar 2012 23:56
    Quote
    Reply # 841287 on 594527
    Deleted user
    Good point, Gary. This is all 'pie in the sky' at the moment, anyway. It would cost to get the rights and it would cost to get it done - I can't see an amateur/hobbyist taking it on. 
  • 01 Mar 2012 23:12
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    Reply # 841275 on 594527
    Deleted user
    Depends how much is blown obtaining the rights. NFP doesn't mean "For Loss" y'know.
  • 01 Mar 2012 18:43
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    Reply # 841013 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    Why would you want copy protection anyway? We're not trying to make money, we just want to get the word out. Most authors who have done proper unprotected ebooks have reported little if any drop in dead-tree sales. I'm willing to bet most people (the ones who are going to actually do something) would buy the dead-tree version as well as the ebook and if they got a pirated version, they'd then go and buy the dead-tree version as it is just simply easier to use when developing your project. However, the ebook format does make a great reference tool to keep on the boat and it would be even greater if it were done with hyper links and a proper index.
    Last modified: 01 Mar 2012 18:45 | Anonymous member
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