Does symmetrical airfoil work better than flat?

<< First  < Prev   1   2   Next >  Last >> 
  • 07 Aug 2017 21:27
    Reply # 5017148 on 5013727

    All good points Arne - it brings us back to the near-philosophical debate of just what exactly is efficiency.  And while you are doing your cost-benefit analysis, you'd do well to do a bit of personal analysis to go with it.  Be honest now: if your destination is dead to windward, do you always sail, or will you choose to motor sail - or even to motor?  I am continually astonished at the number of people with complex, expensive, hard-to-handle rigs, set up for optimising windward performance, who choose to motor when they can't lay the course. 

    It's one thing to like the idea of having a rig that will get you to windward faster than any other, it's another to spend all that time and money on it, and then use the iron yuloh rather than beat.

    Of course, we must not ignore the tweakers and fiddlers: they just want to try out something new.  It's what they enjoy doing and that in itself justifies the time and money spent.  And the rest of us often benefit from their efforts.

  • 07 Aug 2017 20:57
    Reply # 5017093 on 5013727
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    If you are considering making a hotter version of the JR, wing or whatever, I suggest you make a little cost-benefit analysis before you go ahead.

    The fairly plain JRs I design, basically Hasler-McLeod sails with camber added in the single ply panels, are most probably not the fastest version of the JRs to windward, but they are still quite good. Therefore, I think it will take serious improvements (read: cost and/or weight and complexity) to achieve as much as 5% increased VMG to windward.  When reaching and running, the gain over a plain, cambered JR will be very moderate indeed. Are you willing to pay for that 5% extra speed to windward, either by shelling out serious money, or by having to work long hours in the workshop to assemble a big number of bits, which well may decide to fall apart a couple of times before you get it right? If yes, then by all means, go ahead  -  but remember:
    It is so easy to dream up great, aerodynamically superb rigs in the armchair. It is quite another thing to actually convert the dream into reality.

    As said, I go for the ‘second-best’, straight JR with camber. However, it saddens me quite a bit to think of the many people (2/3 of the ‘junkies’?) who are still sailing under inefficient, flat sails. I have owned one such sail, and I most certainly don’t want to own one again.

    Arne

     


    Last modified: 07 Aug 2017 21:04 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 07 Aug 2017 15:40
    Reply # 5016581 on 5013727

    I agree with David.  Camber is all important.  If you dont have enough drive you will never get to windward.  Both the cambered rig and the wing rig will accomplish this

    The next important thing is to reduce drag.  The rounded leading edge helps a lot with this and also increases lift.  Both the split rig and the wing will do this.

    The wing further reduces drag by getting the mast out of the flow.  It does this at the expense of reducing camber and increasing complication and weight.  No one has yet proved that the trade off is worth it but David has come very close. 

    David's next rig will be very interesting to see.

  • 06 Aug 2017 07:50
    Reply # 5014689 on 5013727
    VO TO wrote:

    Hello,

    I'd been sailing around WhitSundays Islands last week and had some thoughts about sail designs. (side note: met up with Graham in s/v Arion) I would like to build a wingsail, but a simple one with a symmetrical airfoil. I came up with an original cambered wingsail design, but now feel the extra mechanics of reversing camber will be too complicated to warrant the increased lift. 

    Any thoughts from wing builders out there?

    You were probably getting more complicated than is strictly necessary. I, too  have made that mistake.. 

    The double-cone hinges that I currently use are the easiest and best way to get articulation, and a single straight tube is the easiest, lightest and best way to carry the loads. It remains to add a luff former component, carrying no load and as light as possible. I'm thinking about it, with a view to making a wingsail this winter.

  • 06 Aug 2017 07:28
    Reply # 5014670 on 5013727

    My very first wingsail, back in 1977, had no camber. I was looking for an advantage from having a round leading edge and no parasitic drag from the mast. If there was any, it was very slight. I soon changed the battens to make them articulate.

    When I saw Mudskipper, I'm pretty sure there were battens that added camber in a very complicated and adjustable way.

    My belief now is that the most important upgrade from a flat junk sail is to add camber. Doesn't matter whether it's with shaped panels, or hinges, or both. Only after that do you start to think about a doubled sail to add the round leading edge and to hide the mast. That will probably improve the performance, but not by a huge amount.

  • 06 Aug 2017 00:47
    Reply # 5014427 on 5013727
    VO TO wrote:

    Hello,

    I read somewhere in this forum, that a previous Gallant rig cruiser was converted to junk rig, and the speed went up 1-2 knts! How is this so?

    I thought a curved 'thick' airfoil would mostly perform better than a flat 'thin' airfoil. I wonder how a cambered 'thin' airfoil will rate against the 'thick' airfoil.

    Any thoughts from wing builders out there?


    Hi, I'm the person who converted Aphrodite from Gallant to a cambered junk rig. Yes, according to her owner Carl Bostek, the boat averaged 1.5 to 2 kts faster to the windward ... was one happy client! The Gallant rig has never been very good, not sure of all the reasons as I've never looked into it. If I were to do a wing sail now, I'd look else where, a lot has happened since that design was developed. Best person to talk to would be David Tyler.
  • 06 Aug 2017 00:12
    Reply # 5014395 on 5014252
    Robert Biegler wrote:

    I have no personal experience, but spoke with the owners of Mudskipper (subject of an article in the newsletter a while ago) when they came through Trondheim.  Mudskipper has a symmetrical wing junk rig for exactly the reasons you outline.  I was told one surprise was how well the rig works in very light winds with a swell.  Seems the round leading edge is much less vulnerable to a stall caused by rolling.


    The photos of Mudskipper sailing to windward that Peter Fry gave me suggest that, because his rig uses soft wingsails, the panels actually develop a bit of an asymmetrical shape due to more pressure on the windward side of the cloth wing panels.  Also, without going back to the article to check, I seem to remember that his wishbones were articulated? 

    Interestingly, after sailing aboard Arion on Lake Macquarie last year, and observing how well the boat sailed with its very simple, uncluttered flat sail, Peter and his partner, Ruth, contemplated changing their rig to a similar design.  This has something, in part, to do with the fact that Mudskipper's rig has sailed a great many miles and is due for a refit. 

  • 05 Aug 2017 22:19
    Reply # 5014252 on 5013727

    I have no personal experience, but spoke with the owners of Mudskipper (subject of an article in the newsletter a while ago) when they came through Trondheim.  Mudskipper has a symmetrical wing junk rig for exactly the reasons you outline.  I was told one surprise was how well the rig works in very light winds with a swell.  Seems the round leading edge is much less vulnerable to a stall caused by rolling.

  • 05 Aug 2017 14:49
    Message # 5013727
    Deleted user

    Hello,

    I'd been sailing around WhitSundays Islands last week and had some thoughts about sail designs. (side note: met up with Graham in s/v Arion) I would like to build a wingsail, but a simple one with a symmetrical airfoil. I came up with an original cambered wingsail design, but now feel the extra mechanics of reversing camber will be too complicated to warrant the increased lift. 

    Basically, the wingsail would be a Gallant rig without the rotating mast. The battens will be shifted slightly abaft to create positive stagger to handle the single sheeting.

    I read somewhere in this forum, that a previous Gallant rig cruiser was converted to junk rig, and the speed went up 1-2 knts! How is this so?

    I thought a curved 'thick' airfoil would mostly perform better than a flat 'thin' airfoil. I wonder how a cambered 'thin' airfoil will rate against the 'thick' airfoil.

    Any thoughts from wing builders out there?


<< First  < Prev   1   2   Next >  Last >> 
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software