General rudder endplate specs

  • 20 Sep 2017 14:23
    Reply # 5271278 on 4960082

    Peter,

    I was nearing completion of converting my K26 'Antares' with an Arne style cambered sail when I learned that a sister, 'Chopsticks' had just been fitted with a Scanes built cambered sail and was found to have severe weather helm. With this in mind, I fitted end plates projecting about 6 inches to both the skeg and the rudder and was happy to find that there was no more weather helm on any point of sail than there had been under her bermudan rig, except when over-canvassed. Dropping a single panel of her 370 sq ft sail cured this.

    I suggest that before going to the trouble of making a new rudder, you try end plates, a simple job that took me less than a single day. Mine were made out of scrap ply, encapsulated in multiple layers of epoxy and glass. 

    Asmat

  • 20 Sep 2017 09:59
    Reply # 5270947 on 5270805
    Anonymous
    David Tyler wrote:

    I can't find any K26 drawings, are there any, or any profile and end-on photos?


    Blondie's drawing of a schooner rig for the K26 is in Jock's Archive - I assume the underwater profile is not too far off.

    Chris


  • 20 Sep 2017 09:42
    Reply # 5270921 on 4960082

    I found some K26 photos, and these are showing a rudder that's way too far forward. Clearly, the modern form of spade rudder that has a vertical rudder stock at the aft end of the waterline is the best fit to this kind of reverse raked counter. But this would require some seriously expensive engineering, and I doubt whether the cost could be justified. Also, I would hesitate to put such a spade on a shoal draught boat - even moderate pitching while taking the ground would carry the risk of damage.

    There seems to be little sensible alternative to a transom hung rudder, parallel sided, with a draught 20cm less than the keels, and a balance of 10% - 15%. Weaverbird's rudder hangings are designed such that the rudder can be lifted by 15cm in shoal water, and I would do the same for the K26.

    Vane steering with this kind of rudder, to a standard of performance that I would be happy with, would require a pendulum gear, preferably a modified form of Weaverbird's . No problem, I could design that.

  • 20 Sep 2017 07:25
    Reply # 5270805 on 5270191
    Peter Scandling wrote:

    At the risk of hijacking this thread..... I'm about to replace the rudder on Tara (K26)  I intend to move the rudder to the transom, and completely discard the barn door that currently exists.  

    Perhaps there might be some suggestion as to what I replace it with..

    all thoughts welcome... 

    Peter

    I found this comment about the K26 on the ybw.com forum:

    "Just one thing that has not been mentioned yet. These boats are liable to have dangerous arm wrenching weather helm, which can be mitigated by reefing early."

    Is a new rudder going to fix this problem, or is it inherent in the hull design, I wonder?

    I can't find any K26 drawings, are there any, or any profile and end-on photos?


    Last modified: 20 Sep 2017 07:33 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Sep 2017 22:03
    Reply # 5270191 on 4960082

    At the risk of hijacking this thread..... I'm about to replace the rudder on Tara (K26)  I intend to move the rudder to the transom, and completely discard the barn door that currently exists.  

    Perhaps there might be some suggestion as to what I replace it with..

    all thoughts welcome... 

    Peter

  • 12 Jul 2017 01:10
    Reply # 4969269 on 4960082

    If you take a look at the album in my profile folder LC's new Rudder you can see what I did for LC. The improvement that the new rudder made has been nothing short of remarkable. There are end plates, not so much to compensate of a lack of efficiency/area but on the top to reduce aeration and at the bottom to reduce bleed off of the high pressure stream to the low pressure side.

  • 11 Jul 2017 22:59
    Reply # 4969136 on 4960082
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
     

    Of course, Scott  -  something that simple can't be right.

    I once suggested to a JRA member that he should fit an endplate to the shallow keel-hung rudder of his boat. He aired the idea for the designer. The designer was not impressed: He replied that if he thought the rudder needed an endplate, he would have fitted it in the first place. End of that story.

    A digression: A couple of days ago, the rudder fell off a friend's Athena 34. He (Allan) had just started on a voyage from Stavanger to Denmark. They were towed into Sirevåg (58:30.223N 5:47.008E), a bit down the coast.  Safely tied up there, Allan managed to tie a rope to the head of the rudder stock and lower it out of the boat and recover it with a boat hook. The rudder stock appeared to have broken in a weld (surprise, surprise) about 20cm inside the rudder blade. No trace of the rudder blade itself. On the photo below, taken this evening, one can see the temporary rudder he had made and bolted to the broken rudder stock. The rudder was re-inserted from below, by me pulling the line and Allan moving the rudder back and forth until it entered the hole. A motoring test in the harbour showed mediocre, but sufficient control. Before he makes a new, permanent rudder, I will have him modify this temporary rudder with an endplate. I will make a note on it here, afterwards.

    Arne

     

    Last modified: 20 Oct 2019 21:38 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 11 Jul 2017 13:32
    Reply # 4967459 on 4960082
    Deleted user

    But... but... but... that's all too easy?  Don't we need to agonize and debate the merits of a hundred different ways to do it?  Jeez guys.  Just slap a plate of most any old shape on and it'll work?  Over on the Wooden Boat Forum, there would be at least one old codger piping in to say that since the Vikings didn't use them, he was against end plates entirely.

    Thanks Arne and Paul.  I'll do exactly that: slap a 50% of the chord plate on , maybe extended a bit aft of the rudder's trailing edge to hold the vortex off a bit longer and make it look cool.

    I figure that the anti-cavitation plate keeps that name because it makes people feel smarter than saying anti-ventilation, even if it's a misnomer.  I agree with you, Graeme. It's right up there with using "literally" to mean "figuratively" and modifying "unique" with "very."  

  • 11 Jul 2017 11:59
    Reply # 4967359 on 4960082
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Anti-cavitation plate - same word used for the plate often mounted over the top of a propeller especially on outboards - its a misnomer. Should be anti-ventilation plate. (Cavitation is a different phenomenon from ventilation, as I am sure you already know.) Just being picky, I suppose.

  • 11 Jul 2017 01:54
    Reply # 4965609 on 4960082

    Arne's advice is good. You could usefully also close up the gap at the top of the rudder as much as possible.  As Arne says, no end plate is needed at the top except if you have an outboard rudder, then an end plate can usefully reduce the amount of air sucked down ie. it is an anti cavitation plate.

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