Flat, hinged or cambered?

  • 15 Nov 2010 11:52
    Reply # 463173 on 461931

    In the Article 'Some Thoughts' published in Newsletter 40, I mentioned the idea of using camber combined with hinges to get the camber right forward in the sail, so I find it interesting that the idea is now being discussed. I must admit that I am not a fan of hinges, believing that a 'solid pole' has less to go wrong, but it would be interesting to see how the combined camber/ hinge would work in practice.

    For some reason some people seem to have the idea that cambered panels are complicated and difficult to live with. I have been told that even the commercially built shelf-foot sails are causing a lot of fiddling to set them up. Making enquiries about this I find that the 'professionals' do not seem to clearly understand Arne's simple cambered rig. For some reason they are rigging the sails with neither batten parrels nor Hong Kong parrels, and are trying to remove creases with the multiple luff hauling parrels which need to be adjusted on a regular basis.

    The simple Hasler/ Mcleod sail with cambered panels only really needs standing Hong Kong parrels to replace the diagonal stability and rigidity of the flat sail to make it behave like a simple flat sail, but with the added performance. Why make life difficult when it is really quite simple?

    Incidentally, I am not 100% convinced that the shelf-foot method of building the commercial version of the cambered sail is the best way. Looking at the 3 pictures of Jonathan Snodgrass’s ‘Lexia’ in the newsletter 55 I feel there is more material hanging around than is necessary. When I told Chris Scanes that I had used a variation of a shelf-foot to make the ‘jibs’ of my split rig he rushed off and started building the sails with the simple shelf-foot as he could understand them. He didn’t listen when I explained that I had modified the shelf-foot idea and ended up with the same camber but with less material across the panel.

     

    Chris claims that the shelf-foot is easier (do we understand ‘Cheaper’) to build than round and broadseam method I talked him through for his first successful cambered sail, but I feel that he used it because he was not happy the calculations I had done for the latter sail, and could not guarantee to reproduce them for a different sized sail. The real question when you look at Lexia’s sails is, if using the shelf-foot method, should it be modified to improve the set?

     

    Personally, I still think that if you are worried about the little wrinkles in Arne’s sail then the vertical cloths with Round and Broadseam is probably easier and quicker to build than the shelf-foot when the calculations are run off on the computer.

     

    Cheers

    Slieve

    PS.

    Reading the above after posting it I realise I may have given a wrong impression. The point of the posting was to encourage the readers to question and discuss if there may be a better method of making the shelf-foot sails. The reference to the photos of ‘Lexia’ were an attempt to illustrate the point and not to criticise the boat or its sails. Speaking to Jonathan before I wrote the above he told me that the photos were all taken in a flat calm, and in such conditions all cambered sails will show some excess cloth to a greater or lesser extent over a flat sail as on the Barbican 33 ‘Janvier Aquila’ in the third photo. Jonathan did confirm that when a light breeze did arrive ‘Lexia’, with her cambered sail did show the expected better performance over the flat sailed boat. There is no question in my mind that a cambered sail will outperform a flat sail, and in particular when sailing to windward. I am convinced that Jonathan was right in fitting cambered sails to 'Lexia', and will enjoy the better performance they will bring. My question is ‘can the shelf-foot sail be built with less material to do the same job?’

    PS, Just a thought, but should this posting be in the 'General Discussion' forum? I've answered this myself by posting it in the 'General Discussion' forum as well so that it can be read by one and all.

     

     

     

    Last modified: 15 Nov 2010 11:52 | Anonymous member
    Merged topic from TECHNICAL FORUM: 15 Aug 2018 20:49
  • 15 Nov 2010 00:56
    Reply # 463039 on 463025
    Arne Kverneland wrote:I wonder; is this hybrid version mainly aimed for people with a need for tidy looking sails? Is the "untidiness" of my sails the real reason why so few JRA members have dared to copy them, 16 years after I showed that they work? Better drift along slowly and look nice, tidy and picturesque?

    I must say I have scratched my head over this last matter many a time...

    Arne

    Arne,
    Better still to sail fast and look nice!! Of course "your" sails work, but it's really quite OK for people to want different things from their boats - some are happy to sail slowly, some are happy to sail fast and look untidy, some like to sail fast and look tidy...
    Last modified: 15 Nov 2010 00:56 | Anonymous member
  • 14 Nov 2010 23:46
    Reply # 463025 on 461931
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Monday, just

    David,

    I’ve seen that idea in a newsletter a while ago, but your presentation is better:

    At least one will achieve the camber without spending that much extra sail cloth as when using the cambered panel version.

    The flat aft part may well serve as a rigid panel with enough diagonal stiffness to avoid any need for Hong Kong parrels or multiple luff parrels.

    As you say, you will both move the max camber forward without bringing the hinge forward (the hinge could even be moved aft to 60% from the luff).

    One challenge would be to shape the camber of the fore section to merge well with the section aft of the hinge, but it should be possible – and probably not that important.

    But what have we won, really?

    Aerodynamic efficiency? Probably not much.

    You mention flogging cloth in a breeze. I can’t say I have problems with flogging cloth in my cambered panel sails.

    The diagonal crease problem I think I have under control too.

    Of course the panels will hang limp in a calm – so did the sails of Cutty Sark!

    The hybrid sail will lose with respect to simplicity of making – suddenly we will have to master both making cambered panels and making good hinges.

    I wonder; is this hybrid version mainly aimed for people with a need for tidy looking sails? Is the "untidiness" of my sails the real reason why so few JRA members have dared to copy them, 16 years after I showed that they work? Better drift along slowly and look nice, tidy and picturesque?

    I must say I have scratched my head over this last matter many a time...

    Arne

    Merged topic from TECHNICAL FORUM: 15 Aug 2018 20:49
  • 14 Nov 2010 22:12
    Reply # 462975 on 461931
    Cambered, flat, hinges, self-stowing.

    When I decided to re-rig my Raven 26 it was because I knew that I would never take her out sailing with the existing Bm rig.  Call me stubborn, idle, or whatever, but facts is facts and I know myself.

    I, perhaps somewhat foolishly, mentioned this intention to some of my friends including Arne. Paul and David who all leapt into enthusiastic action, deluging me with ideas, advice, comment and very generous help.

    My response was definitely no hinges (all agreed), I wanted my nice comfy bed to remain thus (some cavilling) and I wanted the rig to stay as simple to use as Badger's - complete accord, tempered with good-natured sighing about the fact that I hate fiddling with bits of string.  All agreed that a flat sail was out.  Shame - it was what I had planned.  However, what sort of fool asks advice and then dismisses the whole lot out of hand.

    David got in first with a design while Arne was still trying to persuade me that sailing is more important than sleeping in comfort.  David promised me that I would need no extra running lines and that fiddling with the parrels will produce the desired effect.  And both Arne and David, after years of sailing with junk rig are equally convinced that the ability to be able to dump the sail in an instant, ready to haul again, are essential.

    Paul provided the wherewithal for me to build the sail and so I've ended up with a cambered, slightly fanned (sorry, Arne) sail, that I am assured will be as docile and easy to handle as Badger's, while taking me to windward about as well as the Raven would sail with, say, four-year old sails.

    I am hoping to build my mast fairly soon - still investigating wood and firming up a design - after which 'all' that remains to do is to make a hole in my deck, fabricate partners and a mast step and set the thing up.  Believe me, no-one is more keen than I am to see if - sorry - how
    it all works.

    Finally, the bottom line (please don't read this. Arne, David and Paul) is that if the cambered sail is less than satisfactory, an afternoon's work with scissors and sewing machine will produce a flat one!  So Graham, go for the cambered one  - you've really got nothing to lose.  I shall leave it up to you to debate the relative merits of the A school over the D.

    Annie
  • 14 Nov 2010 21:49
    Reply # 462951 on 461931
    A couple of weeks ago, I visited Pete Hill, and saw his Kohler catamaran in build. Pete wanted to know all about my wingsails, with a view to going down that route. After I'd showed him all the drawings and photos, he decided, quite rightly, that it wasn't for him. A wingsail gives the very best performance in a junk-like sail, but it does so at a high cost in terms of materials, time and skill. In cost/benefit terms, a junk sail with either camber built into the panels, or with hinged battens has been proven to give good performance with less investment.
    But:
    Cambered panels have their disadvantages  - loose cloth to flog in a breeze, or to hang limp in a calm; uncertainties over batten stagger; diagonal creasing having to be addressed; and these disadvantages show up more, with more camber being built in. Hinged battens have their disadvantages - loss of integrity; the need for good engineering of the hinge; inability to put in a smoothly curved shape; S-bending if a second hinge is added forward to obtain an acceptable amount of camber with its maximum depth in an acceptable place.
    All these disadvantages show up more, the more camber that is added, to the point where I feel unhappy with either method when a camber of up to 10% is aimed for, an amount that I have now achieved without penalty in my wingsails.
    There is another way. I used it to a very minor extent on "Ivory Gull", way back in the '90s. A combination of both a single hinge and some camber in the panel can be very effective, without too many penalties.
    I made a sketch for Pete, which I have filed in "Members' online file storage/drawings/David's doodles", entitled "sketch for Pete Hill". It shows 1) a single hinge of ±12 degrees articulation, achievable with sufficient strength and integrity 2) the hinge at 50 % of chord, where it won't misbehave by trying to angle the wrong way 3) the sail aft of the hinge dead flat, behaving in a fully junk-like way - no flogging, always well behaved (a feature that I have retained in my wingsails), and able to resist diagonal creasing 4) the sail forward of the hinge with added shelf-foot camber, but to a much lesser degree than would be necessary without the hinge.
    Pete's boat will be very light and easily driven, so I drew the sketch at 6% camber (I haven't tried to alter it to 10 % yet).
    I know Pete can make good hinges - China Moon sailed from Brazil to Tasmania with them, so I have no worries about integrity. There is more work in the sailmaking than with a flat sail, but less cloth is needed than with cambered panels alone.
    Any comments or questions?
    Merged topic from TECHNICAL FORUM: 15 Aug 2018 20:49
  • 14 Nov 2010 20:41
    Reply # 462930 on 462643
    Graham Cox wrote: Having just come to the conclusion that I'd fit a cambered sail to Arion, I read Arne's comments about negative batten stagger in cambered sails (see Arne's pages) and feel less happy.  True, he found some solutions but I find myself thinking about hinged battens again, or maybe even a flat sail (Maybe I'll join the flat earth society!).  Presumably with hinged battens the sail will still behave like a flat sail.  That predictable, "fully automatic" behaviour (To use Hasler's term) means more to me than windward performance.  I have sailed the Pacific on an engineless gaff schooner with baggy, hand-sewn canvas sails and that boat did not go to windward, I can tell you!  I have sailed unweatherly, engineless boats much of my life, sidling up to harbours like a square-rigger - it requires patience and forethought but is perfectly doable.  It would be nice to have some lively performance but not if the price is too high, and I'm not talking dollars.  I wonder though, perhaps David has something to say here, if the use of multiple luff hauling parrels on a cambered sail will let you force the battens aft, assuming you drop the sail panel by panel, tensioning the parrels as you go?  And I also wonder, is my assumption that a flat sail with hinged battens will still behave like a standard flat sail correct?  Some days I feel like a kid on his first day at school with this junk rig business! 
    Graham,
    The issue of batten stagger doesn't need to be made too much of. Putting in camber causes the stagger to become less predictable, less calculable, than with a flat panel, but in practice it doesn't matter too much, unless you go for a lot of camber. Don't let this put you off.
    Negative stagger certainly isn't an issue on fanned sails, rather the opposite - pains have to be taken to prevent too much positive stagger. The "generic fanned sail" that I've published has an even stagger of 2% of chord, more than a Hasler sail, and enough to cope with loss of stagger due to adding camber.
    Hinged battens - well behaved if you only put one hinge well aft, ill behaved if you put another hinge further forward to try to get an acceptable sail shape.
    Now I'm going to start a new topic on the R & D forum, to put an associated new idea before you.
    David.

  • 14 Nov 2010 09:49
    Reply # 462689 on 461931
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Sunday

    Graham. I must either have expressed myself unclearly about that issue of batten stagger, or you must have misinterpreted it.

    The only extra work and brainwork involved with the cambered panel sail is in the designing and construction of it. Operating the cambered sail is exactly like operating the flat sail as long as you have fitted the (fixed) Hong Kong parrels. The furled sail bundle is not dragged out in any direction. In my photo section under my profile there is a photo of Johanna on the slipway. See for yourself.

    As for hinged battens, I left the concept early because I didn’t like to fiddle with the parrels to keep the forward hinges from bending the wrong way. This they sometimes did, particularly in light winds. Handling the cambered panel sails is definitely easier.

    Arne

  • 14 Nov 2010 07:11
    Reply # 462643 on 461931
    Having just come to the conclusion that I'd fit a cambered sail to Arion, I read Arne's comments about negative batten stagger in cambered sails (see Arne's pages) and feel less happy.  True, he found some solutions but I find myself thinking about hinged battens again, or maybe even a flat sail (Maybe I'll join the flat earth society!).  Presumably with hinged battens the sail will still behave like a flat sail.  That predictable, "fully automatic" behaviour (To use Hasler's term) means more to me than windward performance.  I have sailed the Pacific on an engineless gaff schooner with baggy, hand-sewn canvas sails and that boat did not go to windward, I can tell you!  I have sailed unweatherly, engineless boats much of my life, sidling up to harbours like a square-rigger - it requires patience and forethought but is perfectly doable.  It would be nice to have some lively performance but not if the price is too high, and I'm not talking dollars.  I wonder though, perhaps David has something to say here, if the use of multiple luff hauling parrels on a cambered sail will let you force the battens aft, assuming you drop the sail panel by panel, tensioning the parrels as you go?  And I also wonder, is my assumption that a flat sail with hinged battens will still behave like a standard flat sail correct?  Some days I feel like a kid on his first day at school with this junk rig business! 
  • 13 Nov 2010 12:15
    Reply # 462208 on 461931
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Saturday.

    Brian,

    As you soon will understand, I and David have a bit different view on some of your questions:

    About the need for camber, David and I fully agree.

    The same goes for controlling the yard with a combination of running yard parrel and luff parrel.

    However, we have different view on the Hong Kong parrels. I find them to be fully adequate in restoring the diagonal stiffness in the cambered batten panels. It takes a bit fiddling to get them right after rigging the sail, but after that I mainly forget about them. Maybe David’s use of luff hauling parrels will ensure even better setting, but as long as the Hong Kong parrels prevent big, diagonal, camber-robbing creases to develop, I am happy.

    I use only 4 running lines in my sails; sheet, halyard, yard h. parrel and one (upper) luff hauling parrel. If I were to fit another one, I would either fit one or two light down-hauls to let the lowest luff set better (see private photos with comments under my profile), or I would fit a yard fan-up preventer for offshore use.

    As for what is the right camber, 4, 6, 8 or 10%, I feel that there is no "right " number; it depends on the boat type. I would give a heavy, under-rigged boat much camber, say 8-12%, while on a light flyer, say a trimaran I might aim for 4 – 6%.

    Of course, the top panels must be made flatter than the lower panels.

    If you look at the photo review from the Norwegian JRA rally in Stavanger this year, you will find that all the parallelogram panels shown are around 8% with the exception of Samson’s foresail which is 10%. Samson performs exceptionally well considering her low SA/disp of only 13.2.

    I suggest you go to YouTube and search for "Norwegian Junk Rig Rally". There you will see them live.

    Conclusion.

    Rig your boat with cambered panel sails. Then try it with both the multiple luff hauling parrel method and then with Hong Kong parrels. Finally report back to us!

    Good luck!

    Arne

    Last modified: 13 Nov 2010 12:15 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 13 Nov 2010 04:58
    Reply # 462115 on 461931
    Brian Kerslake wrote:


    I fancy cambered, but there are some questions:




    Hello Brian,
        Welcome to the website, and thanks for putting Paradox on the map - I wish more people would. One question - you've put her into HM Prison on Portland!! have you taken up residence there as well? She just needs dragging northwards a bit into the marina.
       Thanks for posting all these interesting questions. Where do I start?
       On all junk rigs, the yard is trying to rotate so as to lower the peak and push the throat forward, tending to crease the panels diagonally. This is true in the upper panels of a flat, Hasler sail, but it is easily remedied with tension on the luff parrel. It is equally true on a sail with cambered panels, but it shows up more if it is not remedied. It shows up more further down the sail, because each panel does not have the diagonal stability of a flat panel. The problem gets worse, the higher-peaked the design of the sail - a Van Loan sail is easy to deal with, since applying a little luff tension will readily pull down the throat. A very high-peaked sail cannot be controlled by luff tension, since luff tension has little effect on controlling the rotation of the yard.
       The essential thing is to have a yard parrel and upper luff parrel that effectively work together to peak up the yard. If the yard parrel is attached to the yard, not at the halyard attachment point, but further up, as near to the masthead as possible; and if the end of the upper luff parrel is attached, not to a batten, but to the heel of the yard, then you are getting the best possible control over the angle of the yard.
       I have never liked Hong Kong parrels. You can only get them absolutely right for one set of circumstances, and they are at best a compromise at other times. I much prefer to use a second luff parrel to control the middle of the sail. It pulls the sail down, into the mast and aft all at the same time, and after some experimentation in how to rig it, can provide effective control over diagonal creasing in the middle panels. I go further, and say that a lower batten parrel, to the lowest battens, is similarly effective. With three batten parrels, you have lines that can act as downhauls for all battens, as well as acting as sail shaping aids.
       To give an example: I made cambered panel sails for Badger in 2006, but left to go voyaging before they were rigged. A week ago, I visited Alan and Gloria Parsons, who told me that Badger's performance was greatly improved compared with that obtained with the old flat sails, and that using upper and middle luff parrels did allow them to shape the sail effectively without diagonal creases; but that they had to work a little more at achieving a good result than they did with flat sails.
       High or low aspect ratio won't have a great deal of influence - it's the control over the yard angle that matters more.
       A mast that bends unduly is what throws the fixed Hong Kong parrels out of kilter most, and there's no answer, except to use an adjustable system - luff parrels.
       Gravity doesn't have much effect on the tubular battens you'll be using, they're too light. The answer? a set of luff parrels.
       All the problems in setting cambered panels well increase with the amount of camber built in. For this reason, I advise those not looking for the ultimate performance not to get too carried away when putting in the camber. 6% is enough to get good performance, without looking excessively droopy when the wind doesn't blow.
       I met a Freedom 39 in Stornaway, years ago, and thought it a nice-looking vessel, but the owner was complaining of lack of windward performance. I suspect that it was because of the large carbon masts in front of the bermudan sails destroying their effectiveness. I don't think you'll notice much loss of performance compared with your present rig if you go for a  good cambered panel rig. You'll do a little more string-pulling than with a flat sail, but not much more. You might actually get to enjoy the feeling of going to windward well!
      
    Last modified: 13 Nov 2010 04:58 | Anonymous member
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