Mast dimensions

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  • 31 May 2016 16:25
    Reply # 4049206 on 3996301
    Deleted user

    Thank you, everybody.  That gives me enough to start sourcing.   I'll report back on how it goes. 

  • 29 May 2016 06:54
    Reply # 4045550 on 3996301

    To a large extent, you'll have to buy what the manufacturers are offering you, but you won't want to go to less than 4in diameter at the top - a mast that whips around at the top is not good, but for a 10in mast, 4in top diameter is OK, and a reasonable compromise between weight and windage on one hand, and flexibility on the other. Some of the flagpoles go down to less than that, and need trimming off. 

  • 29 May 2016 02:23
    Reply # 4045413 on 3996301
    Deleted user

    David, that makes sense - I think that I underestimate the weight of those stays and the roller furling.  And the weight aloft while underway gets into all sorts of, "we would reef if the heel angle", and "our big low reefed square vs your diminishing triangle" stuff.


    Robert - that was exactly what I was looking for.  It'll take me a bit to digest the whole article, but I get the equations now.  Thanks.  It looks like I'll plan for 10" diameter with 0.25" wall thickness.  

    Now for taper?  That's a stiffness issue I'm assuming.  Are there another set of equations to work out how to balance stiffness with weight reduction?

  • 28 May 2016 20:27
    Reply # 4045107 on 4044839
    Deleted user
    Scott Dufour wrote:

    Regarding the mast size - who here can help me out with the math behind validating our rough guess of 10"?  What are we thinking for taper, assuming that I could order whatever I liked?

    http://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-content/uploads/design-engineering-masts.pdf

    This is Eric Sponberg's tech article on designing an unstayed mast for carbon fiber. Lots of math. I thought the most important eqns are 10 and 11 in appendix A.

    The basic idea is to match the mast load (in ft-lbs) at the deck with full sail up and say, a 30 deg heel to the bending moment of a round section (in your case) aluminum mast plus a safety factor.

    David Tyler's intuition is spot on. For your boats 600 ft sq sail, in 12 knts wind speed and sail's CE 23 ft abv the water line (my guesstimate)  I get a 10,000 ft-lb bending moment using Sponberg's methods. A 10" OD x 1/4"Wall, 6063-T6 aluminum mast with 21,000 psi compressive strength in theory will withstand a 32,000 ft-lb bending moment which is about 3X more than required.

    Last modified: 28 May 2016 20:30 | Deleted user
  • 28 May 2016 17:39
    Reply # 4045007 on 3996301

    I'm saying that if you make a like-for-like comparison between a masthead bermudan mast with standing rigging and headsail furling gear in place, and an unstayed mast, there will be little or no difference in the all-up weight, and the CG of the unstayed mast will be lower. A fractional bermudan rig with a tapered topmast will be a closer call.

    Of course, under full sail with the weight of the yard aloft, the picture changes; but there's no meaningful comparison possible - too many variables in play.

    Last modified: 28 May 2016 17:42 | Anonymous member
  • 28 May 2016 13:10
    Reply # 4044839 on 3996301
    Deleted user

    Huh. Is the CoG of a boat with a junk rig lower than the CoG of a Bermudian?  Or are you just saying that the mast, though heavier, has a lower CoG?  Intuitively I would think that both the CoG and CoE on a junk conversion is going to be higher than its Bermudian original.

    Regarding the mast size - who here can help me out with the math behind validating our rough guess of 10"?  What are we thinking for taper, assuming that I could order whatever I liked?

  • 28 May 2016 07:17
    Reply # 4044470 on 3996301

    True, an unstayed mast looks "big and heavy". A bermudan mast may seem lighter, but once you add in the not inconsiderable weight of the standing rigging and headsail furling gear, to get a good like-for-like comparison, there's surprisingly little difference in total weight. And the CG is lower, too.

  • 28 May 2016 00:48
    Reply # 4044243 on 3996301
    Deleted user

    Thank you for the advice, David.  That's a big mast, isn't it?  Is that pushing the limit for weight, do you think?


  • 27 May 2016 15:39
    Reply # 4043045 on 3996301

    Mudita is  somewhat stiffer than Tystie - her righting arm is 0.34m @ 30 degrees, 0.46m @ 58 degrees. The mainmast length is 14.5m. On a purely empirical basis, then, I'd like Mudita to have a mast at least as strong, or preferably stronger. I think you're looking for a 10in diameter flagpole or lighting column, with as thick as wall as you can get, probably 0.25in.

  • 26 May 2016 16:49
    Reply # 4040902 on 3996301
    Deleted user

     

    I hope this is not a hijack, but a continuation of the intent of the thread.  I'm looking for feedback on mast requirements for Mudita.  She's 5567 kg displacement

    I've got this table of data - but what does that mean in an 14m aluminum tapered mast with about 1.5M of bury?   I have a source here in the US for flagpoles and lightpoles, but they were iffy on giving me a quote without full specs. 

    Heel(deg)     RT Arm(m)    Rt Mom(Nm)

    25                 0.39            21523

    30                 0.44            24136

    60                 0.62            33591

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